espresso making mags?

[zion zig zag]

I feel like I'm probably going to take a beating for this but; does anyone have reccos for fully automatic espresso machines that can make milk drinks? And in case I'm getting the verbiage wrong, I mean press a button and get a fully made drink. Can you get something reliable that makes decent shots/drinks that doesn't cost a fortune?

My wife is not interested in learning how to pull a shot or make a latte on the current machine, and I'm never around when she wants one, so.....exploring options.

[doebedoe]

I feel like I'm probably going to take a beating for this but; does anyone have reccos for fully automatic espresso machines that can make milk drinks? And in case I'm getting the verbiage wrong, I mean press a button and get a fully made drink. Can you get something reliable that makes decent shots/drinks that doesn't cost a fortune?

My wife is not interested in learning how to pull a shot or make a latte on the current machine, and I'm never around when she wants one, so.....exploring options.

[tgapp]

This is a great answer, zzz. Jura is the obvious choice, I've had a few friends (dentist types) with them and they make really great milk drinks.

Surprising that James liked the Delonghi as much as he did. $1500 ain't cheap, but can you really put a price on marital bliss?

https://www.williams-sonoma.com/m/pr...resso%20Makers

I've resigned myself to just being the cappuccino maker in my household.

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[jm2e]

Superautomatic is the term you’re looking for. It’s an actual industry term.


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[Benny Profane]

Gotta be a bitch to clean.

[MontuckyFried]

Gotta be a bitch to clean.

Not too bad if you have one of those sweet built-ins that's fully plumbed. They automatically flush all the lines and everything. Had a customer with one. Made a surprisingly good cappuccino! Think it was about $10K for the unit tho along with the full kitchen remodel.

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[zion zig zag]

I've resigned myself to just being the cappuccino maker in my household.

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Same, and I’m ok with that, but I’m usually at work. Maybe lattes will be a weekend thing…..


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[Flounder]

Gotta be a bitch to clean.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? We’ve had a Jura super automatic for at least a decade. So far it’s made 21,097 cups. Cleaning consists of emptying the grounds every few days and running a cleaning solution and descaling every few months. Less work than a drip coffee machine.

Probably about time to replace. I’ve rebuilt the brew group a couple of times over the years. Seems like only the high end Juras are still Swiss made. Also been looking at Gaggia machines. We ran the calculations recently and cost per cup over the years including repairs, cleaning supplies and coffee has it running at just under $0.30 a cup for great tasting coffee, espresso, and lattes. It took us a bit to find the best beans but it’s been a great setup. Quick and easy. I know those aficionados in this thread won’t be fans, but it works for us.

[Mustonen]

Tacking on to this. The fiancé has expressed an interest in an espresso machine, and her birthday is coming up, and goddamn if this doesn’t seem to be an ideal “oh I guess your gift I splurged on benefits me too” situation. By “splurge” I would still like to keep it under $1K, but am looking to be educated. Neither of us have any experience at being a barista.

[MontuckyFried]

Tacking on to this. The fiancé has expressed an interest in an espresso machine, and her birthday is coming up, and goddamn if this doesn’t seem to be an ideal “oh I guess your gift I splurged on benefits me too” situation. By “splurge” I would still like to keep it under $1K, but am looking to be educated. Neither of us have any experience at being a barista.

Nice choice! That was my wife's motivation to buy me one as well, so it's all good. Nothing wrong with a mutually beneficial gift as long as it's not something as obvious as handing her a toilet brush and some gloves. Haha.

I'm still quite the rookie, but from what I've learned thus far, there are some great options under $1K. Just stay away from the sub-$200 garbage. Wife told me one of the annoying things when shopping was the sheer amount of those Nespresso machines out there. Totally taken over store shelves. Maybe they hit the right price point for most consumers but a proper espresso machine they are not.

FWIW, I am still supremely happy with my Breville Bambino Plus, however I know there a few other good options around that price point. ($500). I can only imagine you can do even better between that and a grand, but I'm happy and I like the compact footprint.

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[doebedoe]

Tacking on to this. The fiancé has expressed an interest in an espresso machine, and her birthday is coming up, and goddamn if this doesn’t seem to be an ideal “oh I guess your gift I splurged on benefits me too” situation. By “splurge” I would still like to keep it under $1K, but am looking to be educated. Neither of us have any experience at being a barista.

Do you already have an espresso capable grinder? Does fiance likely want to get into the whole espresso process or prefer a bean-to-cup type solution?

[tgapp]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? We’ve had a Jura super automatic for at least a decade. So far it’s made 21,097 cups. Cleaning consists of emptying the grounds every few days and running a cleaning solution and descaling every few months. Less work than a drip coffee machine.

Probably about time to replace. I’ve rebuilt the brew group a couple of times over the years. Seems like only the high end Juras are still Swiss made. Also been looking at Gaggia machines. We ran the calculations recently and cost per cup over the years including repairs, cleaning supplies and coffee has it running at just under $0.30 a cup for great tasting coffee, espresso, and lattes. It took us a bit to find the best beans but it’s been a great setup. Quick and easy. I know those aficionados in this thread won’t be fans, but it works for us.

i think i represent the espresso aficionado contingent of tgr in saying that jura machines kick ass, there's a reason why they are so highly regarded. and 22k shots, holy shit. damn.

Tacking on to this. The fiancé has expressed an interest in an espresso machine, and her birthday is coming up, and goddamn if this doesn’t seem to be an ideal “oh I guess your gift I splurged on benefits me too” situation. By “splurge” I would still like to keep it under $1K, but am looking to be educated. Neither of us have any experience at being a barista.

yep, lots has been written about this very question, but good thing i like the smell of my own farts, or something. i guess.

you're gonna need a grinder and a machine, and in the long run, a grinder might matter more than your machine. a better grinder means more consistent, predictable, tastier shots. more on this later.

next - you need to be honest about what your intended use case is. if you plan on having capps & lattes every morning, you should prioritize a machine that is good at those things. if not - making straight espresso is much easier (and cheaper, consequently). in our house we make probably 6-8 capps a month, on average, maybe less. definitely less in the summer. by contrast, i make 2-4 shots of espresso a day.

while you can do milk drinks with a cheaper machine, the workflow might be too tedious to do them every day. maybe you start out with a cheaper machine, then realize you need to upgrade in a year or two.

finally, espresso machines are so ubiquitous that you can save a ton of money by buying a used machine. if you need to have a "big birthday moment" though, that's obviously not a great option - we're a family of dirtbags, so my wife would be pissed if i showed up with a brand new <<anything>> - the expectation in our house is that we buy used. THAT SAID, only buy a used espresso machine from an enthusiast who knows how to take care of one. water scale can turn even the most expensive machine into a 70lb paperweight in a hurry, so i would ask specific questions from any used seller (what sort of water do you use? do you descale your machine ever? do you backflush? etc). a good seller will volunteer this information - it's like changing the oil in your car. basic maintenance stuff.

so, what does money buy you? prices are for new machines, i can help you find a killer deal on a used machine if you wanna go that route

below $500 - this market segment is tough, where the internal components of the machine are lacking and you might have the real possibility of a paperweight in a few years. would not recommend unless you are really cash strapped or you like the novelty of an espresso machine. there's nothing novel about my machine - i use it all the fucking time.

$500-1000 - this is usually where people start - these are the first machines that have a 3-way solenoid brew valve, which is critical in allowing the machine to be backflushed (washed internally) and therefor maintained. i would not recommend a machine cheaper than these for this reason alone.

machines in this segment will make great espresso, and they CAN steam milk, but the workflow is sometimes difficult. some standouts - all have their own pros and cons:

rancilio silvia
gaggia classic
lelit anna

a few great options from breville at this price point, too.

what you don't get at this price point:

- repeatability (these machines lack PID controllers to drive exact boiler temps)
- perfect steamed milk (but you can get good steamed milk, it's just a pain in the ass)
- workflow (all of them have one boiler, so you gotta do a song and dance thing to steam milk and brew coffee)

$1000-1500

this is the segment i would recommend shopping in - and again, if used is an option, you can score a great machine here.

two standout machines in this price segment:

breville double boiler (here is is in a bundle - this is a great deal): for the price THIS MACHINE KICKS SO MUCH ASS. you can basically mod it with a 5 second, fully reversible mod that makes it capable of making espresso identical to that of a $7k machine (god tier), and breville has the best warranty in the game. the warranty part cannot be overstated, seriously, breville's warranty is one of the best of any consumer product, anywhere, ever. this is a buy once-cry once machine - it does everything you could ever want. perfect espresso, perfect milk, great workflow, easy to use.

here is a new in box one for $1180 in virginia: https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...va-t79330.html

lelit marax - while the breville is an insane deal in terms of quality of espresso/milk and warranty, it's also built expressly as a home consumer appliance.. a fair bit of plastic in it, which, while not the end of the world, might not be to your liking. again, their warranty is so fucking good it likely doesn't matter, but if you wanted a machine that is built like a goddamn tank and will last you through the next ice age, get an e61 - e61 is this "style" of machine, where everything is chrome-plated bronze and built to last forever. this machine is incredible.

okay, enough of that. on to grinders.

grinders matter more than the machine itself in many ways, so you gotta leave some room in your budget for them. good grinder = good coffee. pretty simple, honestly. don't cheap out here if you care about the actual coffee quality.

if you wanna be dirt cheap, the best bang for your buck are hand grinders. you can get a good, espresso-capable hand grinder for $200 +/-, which is what i used for 5 years or so. hand grinders punch well above their price class, making coffee that easily competes with $1000 grinders

if you don't want a hand grinder, this is what i would recommend: baratza sette 270. at $400 this grinder is a no brainer. excellent quality, great workflow, only downside is it's loud (like a small jet airplane).

hope that helps, dm me if you have any questions, i'm happy to help more

[rod9301]

I have a 3,000 machine and a 700.

The espressos are indistinguishable.

With the cheaper machine, i microwave a cup of milk, then i use a have held device that spins a 1 inch circle and foams the milk.



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[tgapp]

I have a 3,000 machine and a 700.

The espressos are indistinguishable.

With the cheaper machine, i microwave a cup of milk, then i use a have held device that spins a 1 inch circle and foams the milk.

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this ^^ is generally very true. UNLESS you get a very, very specific $3k machine that can shot/flow profile, a $700 machine will produce the same espresso as a $3k machine. you can also make dope steamed milk in a french press for like $10 or whatever

the reason i recommend that $1500 breville double boiler bundle is because you can "hack" that machine in a way that it produces espresso identical to a $7k slayer machine. this is a game changer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_mPZmj6T8

the only reason i spent more than $2k on my machine was to get flow profiling, since the Breville Dual Boiler hack was not common knowledge (i bought a used lelit bianca for $2,200). i would not have spent more than $1.5k if it wasn't for flow profiling.

honestly flow profiling makes such a huge difference in cup quality it's insane. total apples & oranges comparison to any other espresso on the market, and you don't need to be a nerd to appreciate the difference.



this is a shot of espresso i pulled this morning that would have been impossible on a non-profiling machine. 18.5g in, 48g out, 80 second extraction at 202f, absolutely unreal cup quality (notice how the shot is not blonded - it did not run long or over extract) - the coffee is a very light roasted ecuadorian coffee, and the espresso was just beautiful. chocolate, peach, orange, floral. really fucking good.

[doebedoe]

Now I want some fucking espresso and have to leave the house to get it. This thread made me put on pants for the day. Thanks assholes.

[dcpnz]

I recently replaced my 17 year old Gaggia Classic with this.



Pretty fricken stoked.
Is it best bang for the buck - probably not. But it looks great, the output tastes great and if it lasts half as long as my last machine it’ll be money well spent.

Like Rod ^^ with the single boiler classic I used to microwave milk. I’m really liking the morning ritual and workflow with the double boiler machine.

Grinder upgrade coming soon though - the old Baratza Vario is fine for medium roasted blends but struggling to get fine enough for the lighter single origins I’m playing around with.

[rod9301]

this ^^ is generally very true. UNLESS you get a very, very specific $3k machine that can shot/flow profile, a $700 machine will produce the same espresso as a $3k machine. you can also make dope steamed milk in a french press for like $10 or whatever

the reason i recommend that $1500 breville double boiler bundle is because you can "hack" that machine in a way that it produces espresso identical to a $7k slayer machine. this is a game changer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_mPZmj6T8

the only reason i spent more than $2k on my machine was to get flow profiling, since the Breville Dual Boiler hack was not common knowledge (i bought a used lelit bianca for $2,200). i would not have spent more than $1.5k if it wasn't for flow profiling.

honestly flow profiling makes such a huge difference in cup quality it's insane. total apples & oranges comparison to any other espresso on the market, and you don't need to be a nerd to appreciate the difference.



this is a shot of espresso i pulled this morning that would have been impossible on a non-profiling machine. 18.5g in, 48g out, 80 second extraction at 202f, absolutely unreal cup quality (notice how the shot is not blonded - it did not run long or over extract) - the coffee is a very light roasted ecuadorian coffee, and the espresso was just beautiful. chocolate, peach, orange, floral. really fucking good.

80 seconds and you don't get a burnt taste of bitter?

My espresso is 18g in, 25 out and 35 seconds.

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[tgapp]

I recently replaced my 17 year old Gaggia Classic with this.



Pretty fricken stoked.
Is it best bang for the buck - probably not. But it looks great, the output tastes great and if it lasts half as long as my last machine it’ll be money well spent.

Like Rod ^^ with the single boiler classic I used to microwave milk. I’m really liking the morning ritual and workflow with the double boiler machine.

Grinder upgrade coming soon though - the old Baratza Vario is fine for medium roasted blends but struggling to get fine enough for the lighter single origins I’m playing around with.

damn yeah that's a dope machine. have you started to fuck with the 70+ second extractions it's capable of?

dm me ur address and i'll mail you some light roasted espresso shit that i've been having fun with, that's the whole joy of owning a machine like that. super fucking capable.

[tgapp]

80 seconds and you don't get a burnt taste of bitter?

My espresso is 18g in, 25 out and 35 seconds.

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nope, flow control is the differentiator.

yesterday i pulled a 110 second shot for shits and giggles. 18g in, 30g out, 202f. a great natural ethiopian.

i think i let it go a little long - probably 5-10 seconds long - but still, it was beautiful espresso, easily better than i could buy within 100 miles of here.

that's the thing about flow control - i do a low pressure (max 1 bar) pre-infusion for 25 seconds, then kill the pump for 20 seconds, then build pressure for the next 10 seconds, then taper it down for as long as i want until i get the desired shot volume. the declining shot pressure keeps the shot from overextracting, and the pre-infusion prevents channeling and creates a good, even bloom.

i haven't had a shot run quicker than 55 seconds in two years now, and i probably average 70 seconds.

[MontuckyFried]

Wow. You guys are killing me. Amazing machines!

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[Mustonen]

That’s a whole world. I know you did a lot of repetition up there, but I’d already waded through some of these 64 pages and was no closer to knowing where to go, so thank you.

The fiancé likes lattes, so the milk will be important I imagine. We’re total noobs. Every now and then on a Saturday morning we fuck around and get fancy with Starbucks whole bean French roast in our $10 grinder and a French press. Chocolate, peach, and orange? What? We do like our coffee though and I’m sure we’ll nerd out on the minutiae if we can get started with something that makes it all accessible.

[bennymac]

70 seconds! I had no idea that flow profiling changes the approach this significantly.

[mattig]

Just had to jump on the thread really quick with some props for TGapp who hooked a brother up in several ways over the past few weeks, not the least of which being the time savings from not having to wade through pages of coffee nerd forum circle jerks. respec'!

18.5g in, 48g out, 80 second extraction

18.5g in, 48 out?!

Bro, I'm rockin 19 in, 38 out. 48 out is like some Americano shit!

Just kidding, but seriously, isn't that a fairly big ratio? I know I could google it, but I'm not going to.

And of course everything about an 80 second shot time screams "overextracted" from a traditional perspective, so I'm sorry if you explained this in previous pages, but does that mean you're slowing shit way the fuck down during the shot at various points? or in other words, is the "effective" extraction time still more normal with the flow profiling filling some sort of "non-extraction" role like pre-infusion?

(EDIT)
FML, you explained it if I woulda kept scrolling. So where I come from, I don't count that preinfusion as extraction time. I've messed around with a similar super long pre-infusion before, but not enough to know whether or not I like it.

[Doremite]

nope, flow control is the differentiator.

yesterday i pulled a 110 second shot for shits and giggles. 18g in, 30g out, 202f. a great natural ethiopian.

i think i let it go a little long - probably 5-10 seconds long - but still, it was beautiful espresso, easily better than i could buy within 100 miles of here.

that's the thing about flow control - i do a low pressure (max 1 bar) pre-infusion for 25 seconds, then kill the pump for 20 seconds, then build pressure for the next 10 seconds, then taper it down for as long as i want until i get the desired shot volume. the declining shot pressure keeps the shot from overextracting, and the pre-infusion prevents channeling and creates a good, even bloom.

i haven't had a shot run quicker than 55 seconds in two years now, and i probably average 70 seconds.

I assume you build to about 9 bar then taper down to…..?

I also assume the 20 seconds of pump stoppage not in you 80 second calc? Preinfuse for 25, build for 10, decrease for ~40 to desired output volume??

[tgapp]

I assume you build to about 9 bar then taper down to…..?

I also assume the 20 seconds of pump stoppage not in you 80 second calc? Preinfuse for 25, build for 10, decrease for ~40 to desired output volume??

Nah so 70 seconds is total shot time, including the bloom. That might be a little misleading, but since extraction starts when water hits coffee, it's still a fair measurement of shot time. Plus by the end of that bloom period there is already espresso drips coming out. I can record a video if it would be helpful.

The rationale is that a bloom allows for a much more even extraction, creating time for the coffee to fully offgas before extraction starts in earnest. In terms of pressure, it's like 1-2 bar for the first 40 seconds (including bloom), then 9 bars for 7-10 seconds, then a gradual draw down for the next 20-30 seconds. By the time I kill the pump I'm around 2 to 3 bar usually.

Ratios are controversial, and there's a lot that's been written about them. My philosophy is to let the extraction be your guide - kill the pump either just before or just after the shot blonds. 3:1 is a little watery but can be delicious, sometimes I'll go up to 4:1 depending on the coffee. Of course, 2:1 and even 1.25:1 ristrettos can be delicious too. No dogma here.


Here's that same Ecuadorian coffee but a much shittier rendition of it. Oh well. 18.5 in, 44 out, 72 seconds, not as tasty as this morning's. You can see the blonding - should have killed it sooner if I was paying attention. Slight bittering in the cup. Less fruit, more chocolate.

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