espresso making mags?

[tgapp]

Looking to get back into the game. I need a new espresso machine! Looking for something on the prosumer side of things, but of course the cheaper the better. It needs to be able to be plumbed in, open to dual boiler or heat exchanger-- no lever machines, Ive been down that road before and couldn't get consistent good results. The smaller the footprint the better-- I've got plenty of counter space to be honest but the wife will be happier if it isn't gigantic.

Do I go all out for a dual boiler Profitec Pro 700? Are these high end machines really worth the upgrade over for instance, the dual boiler Rancilio Silvia Pro X? Or maybe there is a slightly smaller footprint heat exchange machine that can be plumbed in that'll do me just as good? The wife loves frothy drinks, I mainly just do double shots no milk for myself

I had fairly similar criteria as yours and I ended up with a Lelit Bianca. Could not be happier.

Most HX machines cannot be plumbed in, largely due to the fact that plumbing in requires a rotary pump, and most HX machines will be driven by vibe pumps.

When it comes to DB machines, they're all more or less the same. Different capacities in the steam boiler may make things a hair quicker when steaming milk for more than three people, but most DB machines have the same feature sets. Biggest differentiator (IMO) is the flow control, which some machines (including the Bianca) have as standard. Biggest outlier in the DB machine category is the Decent Espresso DE1+ v1.4, which is absolutely incredible but has a lot of technology (it's controlled by an Android tablet) - might be a good or a bad thing depending on how much you like nerding out and whether or not you like your kitchen appliances to behave like Tesla cars.

Anyway, I fucking love my bianca. Best machine I've ever owned.

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[couloirman]

Thanks for that response! I actually ended up going with the Mara X, which I know I can't plumb in but the combo of everything, and the footprint being so small pushed me over the edge, I just couldn't justify the 2x cost of the double boiler in the end, so decided to spend the extra cash on a quality grinder. One day I will upgrade if I prove to myself that I deserve it.

Grinder wise, I think I've decided on a either the Baratza sette 270wi or a Eureka. Anyone used both the Atom 75 and the Oro Mignon XL and care to comment as to whether the added cost for the Atom 75 is worth it or just save money and go with the 270?

[tgapp]

Thanks for that response! I actually ended up going with the Mara X, which I know I can't plumb in but the combo of everything, and the footprint being so small pushed me over the edge, I just couldn't justify the 2x cost of the double boiler in the end, so decided to spend the extra cash on a quality grinder. One day I will upgrade if I prove to myself that I deserve it.

Grinder wise, I think I've decided on a either the Baratza sette 270wi or a Eureka. Anyone used both the Atom 75 and the Oro Mignon XL and care to comment as to whether the added cost for the Atom 75 is worth it or just save money and go with the 270?

Nah honestly get the Sette. That's a great fucking grinder, and I couldn't imagine a better recommendation for what you're after. The combination of grind quality and workflow on that grinder is honestly astounding, especially at that price point.

The MaraX is also a killer choice, and would have been my #1 recommendation were it not for your plumbed in requirement. Plumbed in doesn't matter IMO, I've never had a plumbed in machine nor felt the need to get one. MaraX+Sette270wi is a stupid good combo that punches well above it's weight class, you'll be making killer espresso in no time. The endless high quality steam you get from those big heat exchangers is also a serious plus, better in some ways than DB machines. Congrats man.





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[mattig]

Nah honestly get the Sette. That's a great fucking grinder, and I couldn't imagine a better recommendation for what you're after. The combination of grind quality and workflow on that grinder is honestly astounding, especially at that price point.

The MaraX is also a killer choice, and would have been my #1 recommendation were it not for your plumbed in requirement. Plumbed in doesn't matter IMO, I've never had a plumbed in machine nor felt the need to get one. MaraX+Sette270wi is a stupid good combo that punches well above it's weight class, you'll be making killer espresso in no time. The endless high quality steam you get from those big heat exchangers is also a serious plus, better in some ways than DB machines. Congrats man.





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You should get a plumbed machine, use it for a few years, and then see if you feel the same way. Maybe you would, idk.

On the grinder, looks like Eureka has a newer model out that's just a hair more than the sette (Silenzio?). Might be worth a look. I don't know anything about it, but I'm so impressed with my Eureka.

There's also an Atom that's not the 75. That's the one I have. Highly recommend. Fits under my kitchen cabinets with a few inches to spare.

No experience with Sette apart from testing in store.

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[bennymac]

Have the Silenzio grinder. It’s great. We’ve had it for a couple years now.

[jm2e]

Is it really that quiet, as the name implies?


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[mattig]

Is it really that quiet, as the name implies?


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If it's anything like my Atom, fuck yes. And if they're marketing it as being quiet, I'd have to imagine it's at least as quiet as mine, if not more so. Like I said a few posts ago, the decibels sold the wife. I wanted to buy a much cheaper grinder. She said no, get the quiet one.

(Edit: OK, just found a few anecdotal decibel measurements suggesting both the Atom and Silenzio are around 80db whereas the Sette is around 95db. Looks like a few folks have tried to hack their Settes to make them quieter.

FWIW, I never cared about grinder volume until I had a quiet one. If I didn't want to spend more than $200 on a grinder, I wouldn't think about sound levels at all. )

[bennymac]

We previously had the Breville one. The Silencio is definitely quieter. It’s still noisy though - not silent at all. I bet there are youtube videos of it in action.

I always imagined that if you needed it quieter you could make a removable box with some form of soundproofing to go over it with an open front for the wand. But that’s not necessary in our household.

[puma]

I should stop reading this thread. I am now questioning if I should abandon my 10 year old Rancilio Rocky Grinder, and invest in something "better" Noise is not something I worried much about, but now that I think of it, I do avoid making coffee in the morning to not wake others up. I think the smell of coffee could still wake the wife up...

Do folks think a grinder investment is worth it based on what I have now? (I think the answer is...do you like what you are making now, if so, don't waste your money...but thought I'd ask)

[couloirman]

(Edit: OK, just found a few anecdotal decibel measurements suggesting both the Atom and Silenzio are around 80db whereas the Sette is around 95db. Looks like a few folks have tried to hack their Settes to make them quieter.

oh wow thats a ton quieter. Def pushes me towards the Eureka. I wake up WAY before anyone else in the house so volume is a big deal

[jm2e]

The bath towel is still my morning solution when mrsjm2e is asleep. Lives on that shelf full time.


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[bennymac]

“ I do avoid making coffee in the morning to not wake others up.”

Everyone is different - but I’d pay a lot of money myself to rectify this situation. I’d make that money back in increased productivity easily.

[PowderAlltheTime]

Talking about grinders, and grinder envy;

Tgapp how's the new Weber? Is it worth getting? I have credit to get one, but being somewhat fiscally responsible (but coffee gear irresponsible); i need an independent review to push me on way or another.

Depending on Tgapp answer, I may have a grinder up for sell.

[neufox47]

Talking about grinders, and grinder envy;

Tgapp how's the new Weber? Is it worth getting? I have credit to get one, but being somewhat fiscally responsible (but coffee gear irresponsible); i need an independent review to push me on way or another.

Depending on Tgapp answer, I may have a grinder up for sell.

What are you maybe selling?

[tgapp]

Don't have it in hand yet. I'll let you know when I get it.

This new Wush Wush is slightly tamer than Klatch's offering, but it's still delicious. Very sweet and candy like.

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[PowderAlltheTime]

I will be selling a Niche.

There is nothing wrong with it, and I really like it. There is no sane reason to change, but coffee and the pursuit of the perfect cup, causes irrational behavior. I've warned all those those who are just beginning on this journey.

[old goat]

I will be selling a Niche.

There is nothing wrong with it, and I really like it. There is no sane reason to change, but coffee and the pursuit of the perfect cup, causes irrational behavior. I've warned all those those who are just beginning on this journey.

Reminds me of guitar players who chase tone and wind up with 40 guitar quivers, a few dozen amps, etc. And will never be satisfied because you never sound the same to yourself as you do to other people--so there's always a sound out there you will never find.
I guess the corollary is that your own espresso is never quite as good as some great cup you had somewhere else.

[mattig]

Reminds me of guitar players who chase tone and wind up with 40 guitar quivers, a few dozen amps, etc. And will never be satisfied because you never sound the same to yourself as you do to other people--so there's always a sound out there you will never find.
I guess the corollary is that your own espresso is never quite as good as some great cup you had somewhere else.

Man, this is some true ass shit. I'd add that you also might not be as good as the person who made that magic sound or magic shot. That said, my dad left my bro several pretty sweet guitars after he shuffled off.



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[jm2e]

Sounds a lot like skiing powder.


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[old goat]

Man, this is some true ass shit. I'd add that you also might not be as good as the person who made that magic sound or magic shot. That said, my dad left my bro several pretty sweet guitars after he shuffled off.



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The sound I'm chasing is Clapton on Eyesight to the Blind from the Tommy movie. I'm not much of a Clapton fan and his tone ordinarily does nothing for me, but the sound on that tune--it just screams.

[tgapp]

Reminds me of guitar players who chase tone and wind up with 40 guitar quivers, a few dozen amps, etc. And will never be satisfied because you never sound the same to yourself as you do to other people--so there's always a sound out there you will never find.
I guess the corollary is that your own espresso is never quite as good as some great cup you had somewhere else.

Nahh, I think it's more akin to cyclists who will pay a premium of $3k for a gruppo that shaves 100g off of their total weight, or that offers marginally better shifting performance. Rarely do you see espresso enthusiasts with more than one grinder - and while having a dedicated brew grinder and an espresso grinder isn't unheard of, even that is relatively rare.

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[neufox47]

I will be selling a Niche.

There is nothing wrong with it, and I really like it. There is no sane reason to change, but coffee and the pursuit of the perfect cup, causes irrational behavior. I've warned all those those who are just beginning on this journey.

Pm sent. What are you getting?


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[tgapp]

Pm sent. What are you getting?


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he said he's possibly getting a weber key, the same grinder that i am planning to get (though also feeling torn by fiscal responsibility). i figure i can get it, try it out for a week or so, and re-sell it for close to what i paid (if not what i paid). coffee gear keeps it's value EXCEPTIONALLY well, for the most part.

PSA for denver based mags, this is 100% the machine i would buy if i wanted a very awesome upgrade at a very affordable price. you can even do the BDB slayer mod on it and basically have the functionality of a $9k machine for 1/10th of that. the mod takes 5 minutes, is completely reversible, and all you lose is the hot water spout - not that big of a deal, honestly.

https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...le-t78471.html

check it out

[Doremite]

I should stop reading this thread. I am now questioning if I should abandon my 10 year old Rancilio Rocky Grinder, and invest in something "better" Noise is not something I worried much about, but now that I think of it, I do avoid making coffee in the morning to not wake others up. I think the smell of coffee could still wake the wife up...

Do folks think a grinder investment is worth it based on what I have now? (I think the answer is...do you like what you are making now, if so, don't waste your money...but thought I'd ask)

I have used the Rocky and Sette 270Wi. I can pull great shots using either. The upgrades the Sette offer is a dosage scale (huge workflow upgrade) and much more precise grind setting. I can set the dosage weight at 18g and dial in the grind w the Sette. I typically shoot for ~30g out at a 35-38s extraction. With the Rocky, I will often have to mess with the dosage weights along with grind adjustment to compensate for the larger jumps in grind fineness to play in these ratios. Rocky is just more of a pain in the ass for someone like me who makes 3 shots a day for myself and 2 for Mrs. Doremite. In this comparison you are paying for convenience not higher liquid quality. Once you’re pampered with workflow convenience it is hard to go backwards.

[tgapp]

I have used the Rocky and Sette 270Wi. I can pull great shots using either. The upgrades the Sette offer is a dosage scale (huge workflow upgrade) and much more precise grind setting. I can set the dosage weight at 18g and dial in the grind w the Sette. I typically shoot for ~30g out at a 35-38s extraction. With the Rocky, I will often have to mess with the dosage weights along with grind adjustment to compensate for the larger jumps in grind fineness to play in these ratios. Rocky is just more of a pain in the ass for someone like me who makes 3 shots a day for myself and 2 for Mrs. Doremite. In this comparison you are paying for convenience not higher liquid quality. Once you’re pampered with workflow convenience it is hard to go backwards.

I agree with this - a better grinder buys you one of two things: better grind quality or better workflow. Sometimes, it can do both.

With regard to grind quality; this one is the more subjective of the two and therefor much harder to quantitatively measure. There's certainly an element of choice-supported bias in assessing the qualitative gains that a better grinder offers, but there's also a lot of science backing the basic idea that better grinder = moar delicious (extraction ratios, particle size distribution, etc - all are very strongly correlated to cup quality). Grind quality is why people are willing to pay $4k+ for a grinder and don't bat an eye - between workflow and grind quality, the biggest gains in a better grinder are to be had in grind quality.

Of course, the law of diminishing returns is in full affect here; my strategy has generally been to buy at the top of the bottom, which means grinders like the Sette 270, the Niche, or the Eureka Atom are all very appealing choices, with varying levels of performance gains over your Rocky (from best to worst in cup quality, it would probably go Niche > Atom > Sette, but they're all excellent. And - I have some choice-supported bias here, as I am an EXTREMELY happy Niche owner).

With regard to workflow, Doremite is dead on the money. A better workflow makes the whole experience so enjoyable; that's one of the biggest arguments for a big double boiler machine - they're just so convenient in every respect, and for some people, the price premium is worth it. Grinder workflow is huge too - the Atom is supposedly very quiet (sounds like that might be a plus in your household), the Sette is wildly convenient and precise (it is loud though), and the Niche is just stupid fucking simple and easy to use (quieter than the Sette but not the atom). All of these would offer varying levels of improvement over your Rocky - with the Sette being the most convenient (BY FAR), the Atom being the quietest, and the Niche being the simplest/most fail proof.

Hope that helps