Real Estate Crash thread

[californiagrown]

What are normal/ reasonable building permit fees?

I just got charged >$11k for a 2500 sq foot building. On the plus side turnaround was only about 4 weeks.

Hourly review averages around $200/hr. 40-60 hours of review would be reasonable, plus administrative fees. I dont deal with SFR projects, only commercial, but ~$10k sounds about right. I just paid $8k as essentially a retainer for City engineering review fees for the civil review of a 4000sf commercial bldg. YMMV.


For most people, if i told you i could get you approved plans and permits in 4 months for an extra $5-$10k, or it would take 6-8 months for no extra cost, most people would go with the expedited review IME. whats an extra $10k on a 1 million dollar home if you can move into it 3-4 months earlier.

[Kevo]

Hourly review averages around $200/hr. 40-60 hours of review would be reasonable, plus administrative fees. I dont deal with SFR projects, only commercial, but ~$10k sounds about right. I just paid $8k as essentially a retainer for City engineering review fees for the civil review of a 4000sf commercial bldg. YMMV.


For most people, if i told you i could get you approved plans and permits in 4 months for an extra $5-$10k, or it would take 6-8 months for no extra cost, most people would go with the expedited review IME. whats an extra $10k on a 1 million dollar home if you can move into it 3-4 months earlier.

This is a light industrial zoned steel building. I am pleased with the turnaround time at least.

[zion zig zag]

Utah State law says that cities must complete a plan review for SFD’s in 14 days, and 21 days for residential projects built from the IBC. If they fail to meet that timeline they have waived their right to a review of the project so long as it’s been stamped by an Architect/Engineer.

The State also passed a law last session that says if the building official/fire marshal calls something out as non code compliant, in plan review or inspection, the developer can hire a 3rd party licensed architect or engineer to override them. And yes, Utah legislature is packed with developers and builders who will absolutely compromise on safety to make a buck.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
The State also passed a law last session that says if the building official/fire marshal calls something out as non code compliant, in plan review or inspection, the developer can hire a 3rd party licensed architect or engineer to override them. And yes, Utah legislature is packed with developers and builders who will absolutely compromise on safety to make a buck.

Excellent! What could possibly go wrong?

[californiagrown]

Utah State law says that cities must complete a plan review for SFD’s in 14 days, and 21 days for residential projects built from the IBC. If they fail to meet that timeline they have waived their right to a review of the project so long as it’s been stamped by an Architect/Engineer.

The State also passed a law last session that says if the building official/fire marshal calls something out as non code compliant, in plan review or inspection, the developer can hire a 3rd party licensed architect or engineer to override them. And yes, Utah legislature is packed with developers and builders who will absolutely compromise on safety to make a buck.

And a certain DOT says that their review must be returned in 10 calendar days or similar. So, they just issue a single comment to restart the clock and the project ends up with 20 rounds of review.


On top of it possibly compromising safety, and placing a fuckton more liability on the developers consultant team, its an easily sidestepped policy that doesnt work in practice IME. Given, i dont have experience in Utah, but i do have experience in jurisdictions with similar policies in place.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I can’t remember if this has been discussed previously, but the DOJ going after the ‘rental market collusion software’ company is good.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...wsuit-00167838

[Name Redacted]

Insurance rates going through the roof. The next challenge for homeowners. Never ends. We just had to "self survey" with our insurance. Guessing they are going to tell us to get a new roof or something.

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/are-t...-eagle-county/

[Yukonrider]

I just did an insurance reassessment and increased my replacement value 250% in one case. I assume there is a large contingent of people out there who are not only facing higher costs, but are vastly under insured.

[duffski]

Hourly review averages around $200/hr. 40-60 hours of review would be reasonable, plus administrative fees. I dont deal with SFR projects, only commercial, but ~$10k sounds about right. I just paid $8k as essentially a retainer for City engineering review fees for the civil review of a 4000sf commercial bldg. YMMV.


For most people, if i told you i could get you approved plans and permits in 4 months for an extra $5-$10k, or it would take 6-8 months for no extra cost, most people would go with the expedited review IME. whats an extra $10k on a 1 million dollar home if you can move into it 3-4 months earlier.

Curious, are you working overtime to do the expedited plans or are you just leap frogging the clients that don't want to pony up the extra $$$. If the latter that seems sort of scummy to me and probably should be illegal.

[Mustonen]

Curious, are you working overtime to do the expedited plans or are you just leap frogging the clients that don't want to pony up the extra $$$. If the latter that seems sort of scummy to me and probably should be illegal.

Why does he have to work OT to earn a premium?

[Conundrum]

Working for higher compensation in private industry doesn’t seem scummy nor should be illegal. As long as hitting agreed upon timelines for the lower $ payers.

Is it scummy to quit a job for a higher salary elsewhere in other businesses?

[duffski]

Had no idea this was private industry as permitting usually goes through the county or various other public committees like the coastal commission where I live. I was just wondering if the increased time to get permitted is lengthened by those with deeper pockets skipping the line so to speak. I guess a better way to frame it would be that they offer a discount on their services if you are willing to wait longer and not that you can pay extra to get it done sooner.

[Kevo]

I can’t remember if this has been discussed previously, but the DOJ going after the ‘rental market collusion software’ company is good.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...wsuit-00167838

It's good, but it is way too little way too late IMO. I'm sure the defendants will end up paying a fine that amounts to a small portion of the profit that they generated and that almost all of the landlords that benefited will never see any kind of justice.

[rideit]

Excellent! What could possibly go wrong?

“rEgUlaTiOns iMpInge fReEdom!”

Yeah, the freedom to die from a fire, asbestos poisoning, lead, pcb’s, etc…

[yeahman]

A 0.17-Acre Side Lot In Jackson With Nothing On It Lists For Nearly $1.7 Million

[rideit]

It would be worth exactly the same with a 70 year old shitbox on it. Which would be scraped immediately anyway.

[Conundrum]

Maybe less. No demo costs for bare dirt.

[zion zig zag]

A 0.17-Acre Side Lot In Jackson With Nothing On It Lists For Nearly $1.7 Million

“Jackson is just a world unto its own,” Valdez said. “It’s not something for the average person. It’s for those who dare to dream. That’s how they got there — they take risks that you and I would never dream of.
“They build these empires, and now they can afford to live wherever they want. And they can pay that kind of money for that little piece of land.”

Gag me.

[Djongo Unchained]

So their main source of info for the article was some schmuck dirt pimp from Cheyenne. Of course his opinion will be perfectly well informed from that far away.

And his descriptions/ narrative is indeed gag worthy.
The best line in the article is the next to last one. The price was just reduced because no one was interested. So now they're beating the door down? No.

As a reference, I know of a house about 4 blocks away, sits on a double lot and was recently upzoned for multi family. Asking 3M and not a single inquiry in months.

Right next to a recently completed town workforce construction project, that took some financial gymnastics to get people into.
1local and about 12 new kids with $$$$. I see a vintage mercedes, a new defender, a new expedition and a new 4runner over there.

This valley deserved so much better than it's gotten.

[neckdeep]

“Jackson is just a world unto its own,” Valdez said. “It’s not something for the average person. It’s for those who dare to dream. That’s how they got there — they take risks that you and I would never dream of.
“They build these empires, and now they can afford to live wherever they want. And they can pay that kind of money for that little piece of land.”

Gag me.

Yeah. That's the sound of a dirt pimp jacking off into his own mouth.

The idea that some "empire builder" is going to live on a dinky .17 lot in east Jackson is just fucking retarded. Those people live on the west bank or in a gated community on the buttes. The lot in east Jackson costs that much because the empire builders are using the worker neighborhood as a place to park their extra money after they got another big tax cut.

[AdironRider]

Working for higher compensation in private industry doesn’t seem scummy nor should be illegal. As long as hitting agreed upon timelines for the lower $ payers.

Is it scummy to quit a job for a higher salary elsewhere in other businesses?

My read is that it is scummy to provide and opportunity for rich people to pay to jump the permitting line, predicated on govt laziness and a lack of willingness to do more, not that someone inherently offers the service.

[goldenboy]

That lot would be listed for more than that in Crested Butte. There are 3 .14 acre lots in town right now at $1.9-2M. But around here there is a huge premium to be paid for something in town versus something anywhere else. And you can't buy a house and scrape it either. You can get a half acre for $500k near the ski area, or under $200K 8 miles away in CB South.

[Conundrum]

My read is that it is scummy to provide and opportunity for rich people to pay to jump the permitting line, predicated on govt laziness and a lack of willingness to do more, not that someone inherently offers the service.

Do I personally pay once in a while to have the potholes in the public alley behind my house graded vs waiting for the city three year rotation? Sure. Is that scummy to the people that live with potholes for three years in different alleys?

Maybe we all need to pay more taxes so I don’t have potholes and permits are approved quicker. You’ve made comments on taxes and gov here before right?

[Toadman]

There's a lot of new development going on in the NW area of Bend. Lots listed for over $500k 1/4 to 1/3 lot size with nice views of the school across the street.

https://discoverywestbend.com/custom-homes/

Some of the town homes are going for over $1k/sq ft. But someone is buying them.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...58484265_zpid/

[Kevo]

There's a lot of new development going on in the NW area of Bend. Lots listed for over $500k 1/4 to 1/3 lot size with nice views of the school across the street.

https://discoverywestbend.com/custom-homes/

Some of the town homes are going for over $1k/sq ft. But someone is buying them.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...58484265_zpid/

seems like there is a lot of inventory in Bend at the moment