To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[old goat]

You guys are not going to convince Leroy Jenkins no matter how hard you try, at least not until he starts taking SSRIs.

In the meantime, I'm shocked that there are that many intelligent people in Florida, although maybe all the vaccinated ones are transplants from the NE--ie not real Floridians.

And isn't it interesting the most of the vaccinated people in Texas live along the border.

[Trackhead]

Maybe Leroy would do better with Zyprexa?

[LongShortLong]

Hmm. Distorting someone elses views to the extreme, so that they are easy to mock and attack, is called a strawman.

I agree in principle, but these are the actual views of someone I know. Someone who seems pretty plugged in to conspiracies. I didn't distort their views. Like you, I also find them extreme. Extreme and truly held views.

I see in subsequent posts, we've determined that Campbell is the source of recent claims. I've watched him over the course of the pandemic. He started out mostly presenting data and his interpretations. As time went on, his interpretations became more and more conspiratorial. I think he was algorithmically captured by youtube. His more conspiratorial takes attracted more viewers and straight takes fewer. As time went on he delivered more of what the audience demanded and less of the truth. I have not watched his latest excess deaths video, as he's not a trustworthy source. Never really was, but he presented news and data early on, with references, that made it easy to find data sources and make my own interpretations. I also enjoyed the episodes where he helped people in rural clinics in Africa.

[thedude2340]

Red/blue indicating how the state went in the last election?

[CarlMega]

Red/blue indicating how the state went in the last election?

Only if you believe the deep state narrative and not the first hand 2 million mule accounts of Biden personally stuffing ballot boxes and giving old people Indian arm burns in retirement homes until they relented and erased the former guy's name. Rigged!

[leroy jenkins]

Leroy,

Calm down. I posted that graph supporting your notion that SSRI efficacy is probably overly optimistic in the public sector. I think the public is similarly overly optimistic about efficacy of boosters, but there’s only my anecdotal experiences to support that claim.

Do know that I gain nothing from prescribe SSRIs. No clinician does. We are only “peddling” shit the public wants or thinks they need. Americans are lazy as fuck and want literally a prescription for everything to fix everything NOW.

Primary care sucks ass because of this, and also because patients think they know everything because they read it on the internet so it must be true.

It’s why people bail and work ER or Urgent care. Less bullshit.

Super calm. Calmer than you bro! Keep away from me with those fucking needles Nurse Rachet I don't need your sedatives I self medicate just fine!

In all reality, I am fairly calm currently, and am grateful for the discussion, I didn't mean 'peddling' in a derogatory way, if I had I would have said "pushing" instead. Really, I don't think primary care physicians are the problem here, if that's what you are. If I was going to use the word pushing, I would reserve that for some psychologists. I have watched several people go on a fucking roller coaster of SSRI horror stories, like people with BPD with history of mild disassociation before SSRIs, and full on psychosis and imagined memories delusions etc after going on them. Every time, this involved a change of Drs, with the new one drastically lowering dosages, saying they had no idea what the old docs were thinking with the old dosages. Typically going from a cocktail of multiple drugs to just a low dosage of a single drug.

I don't really know her well enough to know if this is true, but my neighbor told me she has no history of mental health problems, but was prescribed SSRIs as sleep aids, but felt like she was losing her grip on reality when she tried to get off them.

Not to mention, the downstream effects of these things are really hard to quantify. When people with BPD get full blown psychosis, they behave in ways that are harmful for themselves and others, and really, cam include behavior that is absolutely traumatizing for others. Its really hard to quantify that. There absolutely have been suicides caused by SSRI complications.

The usage of these just doesn't seem to match the first do no harm principle. It many ways it seems like medicine has strayed from that. Personally, my own worst experience with a Dr was an ortho who tried to sell me hand surgery because, hey your insurance will pay for it so why not? Which is a scary thing to hear about anything involving anesthesia. He didn't even tell me my chances for healing properly with vs without the surgery. Turns out, it offered marginal improvement in chances.

That seems to be the way the medicine industry as a whole is these days. heres some shit that seems to work and will make us money. Dependent customers seems to be a primary objective.

I'm calm though. I'm not trying to dunk on anyone, although sometimes I succumb to that urge, I guess really, I'm just posting because, while so many people seem so divided, conditioned by fear of the 'other side' into denying even any valid criticism of 'their side' or the establishment or whatever, I think its good to just agree about some of these things. fuck that feels like a low bar.

There also is like ten layers of hidden meaning in that graph though. Like, it makes the point you were making about not being much more effective than placebo, but it also pretty well makes the points I already elucidated about it, it is an example of the manipulation of information, which is propaganda.

I've been liberal my whole life, although more classically liberal than woke for sure, but it's been some huge trick played on liberals to condition them into cheerleading big business en masse. Both like, en masse of people cheering a cheering a mass of big businesses. Honestly it's a problem that scares me, that I don't think will get resolved without liberals stopping just mindlessly cheerleading this shit and gaslighting away any concerns about anything.

the truth is, we don't really have great data about the vax and covid in many ways. In some ways, it might get better with time, but in many ways, its just fucked now.

[leroy jenkins]

Only if you believe the deep state narrative and not the first hand 2 million mule accounts of Biden personally stuffing ballot boxes and giving old people Indian arm burns in retirement homes until they relented and erased the former guy's name. Rigged!

He gave me a noogie. Not an indian burn.

[leroy jenkins]

It's cynicisms and this is TGR. That is reductionist, and I'm rolling with it.

I could argue this point but I have empathy for you and don't really feel the need to demonize doctors. I dont' see that as being productive. But I think you know theres a whole culture about it.

I recently heard an interview with a woman who worked at a gender health clinic for a few years, married to a trans person, but gradually developed concerns and has now become an advocate for idk what you call it trans caution? I don't keep up with all the terms, but she described an environment full of good intentions and compassion, but with absolutely no mechanism to do anything but funnel kids through this system. She felt the services offered helped some kids, but had concerns about some of her patients that did not seem to be helped by progressing through this process, and she tried to talk to doctors about it, and while they weren't unreceptive, there just weren't any mechanisms to literally do anything other than process kids through this. Its fascinating and sad, but its this combination of compassion, being scared to discourage or be unsupportive of anyone, and financial pressures to sell products to potential customers. Therapy IS gender affirming care from the start, and that doesn't mean your birth gender, they don't explore the topic they just affirm the new gender and progress you to the next step of the process. They literally didn't even have like, the paperwork to send someone back to therapy to work through confusion etc.

I'm just rambling at clouds basically,

[jono]

huh? out of everything I said this is the salient point to you? A fixation on the word many for a minor offhand side point? And 20 percent of all people actively gaslighting the rest of us wouldn't be a lot to you? Strange.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. The rest of your walls of text are sad attempts to lead the innumerati by railing at people to do their own math while you imagine invisible studies and data as they might be in an alternate universe or the bizarro world.

So when I noticed that you thought a lot of people said they didn't remember something that didn't happen it gave me hope. Maybe just for them, but still. Hope. Then I realized who was making the claim and my hope fell a little. Then I realized you weren't even claiming it was "most" people, just "many" people. And my hope was dashed. Shit, man, "many" people are innumerate, delusional anger bombs wrapped in skins that barely contain the bubbling stew of their circular emotions and prejudicial nonsense. Many ain't shit.

I hear Prozac is helping delay dementia. Group buy?

[leroy jenkins]

The vaccine worked to reduce death and disease burden.

We can debate who still needs boosters - that’s a different question. The graph of covid admissions that you didn’t respond to suggests there is a significant population of people who would benefit from the protection of boosters - these boosters again being the vaccine that has been proven to work.

Then you get scholars like Leroy who say “I'm really not aware of any good data on efficacy for the vax” - and then moments later responds to a mag by saying “Why don't you just do the math yourself?”

And to say prescribers “only” give SSRIs because that’s what patients want is incredibly simplistic and reductionist and wrong.

The do the math yourself comment was in regards to excess deaths. The math for vax efficacy is forever fucked, due to levels of sloppiness with data collection that seems to only possibly be intentional, but the math for excess deaths is a lot easier to calculate, and a lot less fucked. I also didn't rail at anyone. I simply asked why not do the math yourself. There are honest valid answers to that like I can't be fucking bothered because we're all having an existential crisis. but no, your post is a lot closer to 'railing' at someone than my simple question.

Again, there is SOME validity to what you say, that the data suggests some efficacy for vax and boosters. Great yea i've never said theres NONE. This still proves what I'm saying RIGHT, that the vax and boosters are not used based on really good hard data and a clear understanding of percentages of side effects, who is going to see those side effects and just what the efficacy is for different demographics. Rather, they are used like SSRIs. Hey it seems like these work some, so good luck.

I do ramble a bit, and I have a weakness for the run on sentence, but i think I fairly clearly make my points, and your inaccuracies in describing them feels more like a strawman than any actual good faith argument.

There are valid ways you can come at me on this, you don't have to resort to strawmen.

[leroy jenkins]

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. The rest of your walls of text are sad attempts to lead the innumerati by railing at people to do their own math while you imagine invisible studies and data as they might be in an alternate universe or the bizarro world.

So when I noticed that you thought a lot of people said they didn't remember something that didn't happen it gave me hope. Maybe just for them, but still. Hope. Then I realized who was making the claim and my hope fell a little. Then I realized you weren't even claiming it was "most" people, just "many" people. And my hope was dashed. Shit, man, "many" people are innumerate, delusional anger bombs wrapped in skins that barely contain the bubbling stew of their circular emotions and prejudicial nonsense. Many ain't shit.

I hear Prozac is helping delay dementia. Group buy?

Oh so you're now claiming the 99% claim never happened? Did biden never state unequivocally that the vaxed won't get covid? Just lets be clear about your gaslighting bullshit if you're going to say it. if you're complaining about my walls of text, go ahead and spit your shit out plainly and stop playing these games wasting posts on nothing.

[leroy jenkins]

I agree in principle, but these are the actual views of someone I know. Someone who seems pretty plugged in to conspiracies. I didn't distort their views. Like you, I also find them extreme. Extreme and truly held views.

I see in subsequent posts, we've determined that Campbell is the source of recent claims. I've watched him over the course of the pandemic. He started out mostly presenting data and his interpretations. As time went on, his interpretations became more and more conspiratorial. I think he was algorithmically captured by youtube. His more conspiratorial takes attracted more viewers and straight takes fewer. As time went on he delivered more of what the audience demanded and less of the truth. I have not watched his latest excess deaths video, as he's not a trustworthy source. Never really was, but he presented news and data early on, with references, that made it easy to find data sources and make my own interpretations. I also enjoyed the episodes where he helped people in rural clinics in Africa.

Oh so not a distortion, but deliberately picking the craziest real view you can find. intellectually, kind of the same thing. Maybe slightly better. Like, less dishonest and more just you experienced this dudes vibe first hand and felt a need to express it, i get that when you meet a crazy person its a natural reaction, but still, this "I only want to interact with the veiws I disagree with if they are ridiculous enough i can just easily dunk on them' is both really common these days, and a sign of intellectual and spiritual weakness. I mean, not that my shit don't stink it stinks like garlic but yea.

And your second paragraph is idk, but i'm not going to check it out as I'm sure its not real. Yea, we're all a bit exhausted these days. I think your attitude is the precise effect some people have intended.

[leroy jenkins]

You guys are not going to convince Leroy Jenkins no matter how hard you try, at least not until he starts taking SSRIs.

.

Perhaps, but at the same time, saying this is some weak ass shit. It would speak louder to actually prove me wrong about something, adn to me, you just come off ass weak, triggered fragile and unable to talk to anyone outside an echo chamber.

[jono]

Oh so you're now claiming the 99% claim never happened? Did biden never state unequivocally that the vaxed won't get covid? Just lets be clear about your gaslighting bullshit if you're going to say it. if you're complaining about my walls of text, go ahead and spit your shit out plainly and stop playing these games wasting posts on nothing.

I said it clearly the first time. You not getting it is an excellent bit of feedback, though, thank you!

The vaccines' efficacy was best estimated by published studies. Peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled and double blind. Still out there with maths you could check by repeating it yourself. It topped out in a pair of third dose vs. Delta studies, and unfortunately even those didn't quite hit 99%. (No spoilers, but it was pretty good!)

If you're saying that your definition of data is whatever you hear from politicians just go ahead and say that.

[leroy jenkins]

I said it clearly the first time. You not getting it is an excellent bit of feedback, though, thank you!

The vaccines' efficacy was best estimated by published studies. Peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled and double blind. Still out there with maths you could check by repeating it yourself. It topped out in a pair of third dose vs. Delta studies, and unfortunately even those didn't quite hit 99%. (No spoilers, but it was pretty good!)

If you're saying that your definition of data is whatever you hear from politicians just go ahead and say that.

Nothing you said contradicts me, you're just playing games. Are you saying no one made inaccurate claims? The fact politicians did doesn't matter? The head o fhte CDC herself has said decisions were made based off wishful thinking. Fauci has admitted the lockdown guildines just sort of appeared out of thin are and no one even knows who created them.

You can have your beliefs without gaslighting people.

And the data was also fucked, for the mass human trials. i've already talked about this and no one debunked shit so I'm not repeating it.

[jono]

I'm not repeating it.

Sure you are. No one's reading it anyway, just go nuts. Better yet, meet Cono Este in the Trump thread, he totally needs the competition.

[leroy jenkins]

It still baffles me how anti science anti medicine morons like LJ are still out there on vaccines, especially COVID-19

The reason AZ has both high vax rates and mortality is because they're fucking old and have commodities


Talking to the far right about facts is like talking to a 5 year old about Santa Clause

Whos far right here? Me? I've literally never voted for a republican.

Great, yea, it seems funny how multiple variables seem to matter when it fits your narrative to, and don't when it doesn't.

Also not anti science or anti medicine.

You're exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone has any concerns at all and its anti medicine anti science far right bla bla bla waaaaah waaaaah.

I'm pro science, just anti scientism, and have concerns about corporate influence on science.

[leroy jenkins]

Sure you are. No one's reading it anyway, just go nuts. Better yet, meet Cono Este in the Trump thread, he totally needs the competition.

Why would I want to go to the trump thread? wtf does that have to do with anything?

Seems you did in fact, read to the end of that post.

I bet someday, I'm going to find out that 80% of you are actually STILL just ISKIBC talking to his other personalities. Its the only explanation for this place.

[jono]

Why would I want to go to the trump thread? wtf does that have to do with anything?

Seems you did in fact, read to the end of that post.

I bet someday, I'm going to find out that 80% of you are actually STILL just ISKIBC talking to his other personalities. Its the only explanation for this place.

I actually just skim these things, but I noticed you asked about the Trump thread. I mentioned it as a kindness since I didn't figure you'd know that's the place for huge meltdowns. I mean, yeah, you kinda know. But sometimes people need confirmation.

[leroy jenkins]

I actually just skim these things, but I noticed you asked about the Trump thread. I mentioned it as a kindness since I didn't figure you'd know that's the place for huge meltdowns. I mean, yeah, you kinda know. But sometimes people need confirmation.

Hmm, seems more like you lump people into a group. Raised concerns about vax, must love talking about trump? Seems thats how your brain works these days huh?

Trump is disgusting boring and most likely no longer politically relevant. I suggest we cease mention of him.

I mean, i get its just a dig, but, you can do better. Maybe go watch a comic work some hecklers or something, like if its NOTHING but a dig at least try and make mildly entertaining. Don't you even try to entertain yourself? Seems boring to be you.

[jono]

Listen. I know where the meltdowns go. I see that you need to know. So I tell you. And now you know. You're welcome.

Now are you in for the Prozac group buy or what?

[leroy jenkins]

Listen. I know where the meltdowns go. I see that you need to know. So I tell you. And now you know. You're welcome.

Now are you in for the Prozac group buy or what?

Thanks for letting me know you have nothing to say and offer. In the future, the best way to do this, is just to not say anything atall.

[bennymac]

Leroy you said that Cisco Kid “couldn’t say the vaccines were better than nothing” and any comments supporting the efficacy of vaccines was “smug bullshit without substance or basis in science.”

You also said “I'm really not aware of any good data on efficacy for the vax.” - so I’m not sure how you square that with the above comment from you - but I bet you’ll ignore it.

You said most people who were vaccinated and then caught covid shortly after should be blaming any symptoms on the vaccine side effects and not on covid (seriously WTF are you on?!)

You tried (poorly) to compare covid vaccines to SSRI (I suspect to steer the conversation away from your opinionated and unsupported vaccine ramblings) as just something being used because “it appears to do something”

And now as your bullshit starts to crumble you’re resorting to walls of text and pivoting to “I just have concerns why is everyone attacking poor me I’m just asking questions! Is it bad to ask questions?” Fuck off with that bullshit - don’t insult us - we can remember the shit you posted earlier in the same day you gaslighting asshole.

I’ll post the graph for you again. Try to respond without mentioning Biden or Fauci or masks or lockdowns. Or antidepressants or big pharma or the US for profit healthcare system. There’s no need to even mention vaccine side effects - that’s a different topic - we’re discussing efficacy. Vaccines have consequences - as does not taking a vaccine.

And there is certainly no need to comment on your own feelings, emotions, and preconceived notions. Nor your incessant desire to paint yourself as an intellectual by being contrarian and willfully ignorant of facts.

[Cisco Kid]

Logic. How does that work?

[jono]

Thanks for letting me know you have nothing to say and offer. In the future, the best way to do this, is just to not say anything atall.

Username does not check out. Sad day.