To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Cisco Kid]

Math is not my forte but the way I read the report in your link, the health risk for heart issues from the vaccine 100's of times less than the same heart issues from getting sick.

People die in a crash with a seatbelt. But 1000's do not because they wore a seatbelt.

Straighten Up and Fly Right.

[Dantheman]

The way the news reported it last night (CBS affiliate) was really bad basically saying everything Q people have been warning.

They called it "long vax" comparing it to long Covid if not much worse. The said the spike proteins formed as a result of the vax were doing damage by causing mini blood clots and they could happen today or years from now.

JFC. The paper does not even speculate on the cause(s) of the signal seen in the data. "Spike protein" does not appear once: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...270?via%3Dihub

It's a serious hard science paper. The pool of people qualified to interpret the results is small.

Another problem with a study like this is that it compares the rates of these diseases in vaccinated people with "expected" rates, rather than a comparison with contemporary unvaccinated people. Expected rates of things like myocarditis are fairly meaningless since it depends on these diseases being reported and counted. .When you're actively looking for cases you're going to find more of them than if you're depending on them to have been reported in a context in which there was no particular concern about their frequency.

Unfortunately, there is no link to the study (and I'm too lazy to find it) but was the frequency increased for all 13 diseases? Were there any where the frequency was decreased? In other words, were the observed increases the results of statistical variation which would disappear if the rates of all 13 diseases combined? (I actually do think that the vaccines do have these rare complications, although the exact degree of increased risk reported in the study is meaningless--taking it to the decimal is absurd. I don't like sloppy science.)

Link to the full text above. While I'm not remotely qualified to interpret the results, it does smell a little like an overpowered study that could be generating spurious associations. That's OK for a screening level assessment like this that is meant to be followed up with additional studies that can actually address cause-and-effect, but it's problematic in the modern media environment.

[KQ]

This is the article. I saw the live report last night and it was sold as "vax was a medical mistake" blaming the type for vax i.e. mRNA

... why won't it link?


Maybe this...

https://keprtv.com/news/nation-world...related-risks#


Okay. .not sure why the link doesn't work because I can go to the news page and pull it up. I gotta go take care of the animals. Will try later.

If you want to see it it was KEPR news under the health tab. Title is:

New COVID vaccine study suggests small, rare bumps in neurological and heart-related risks

[KQ]

To be clear, I'm more pissed at poor reporting that will only encourage more vaccine fear and loathing.

[Cisco Kid]

Yeah, as you can see here with the resident vaxyphobes, any headline can reinforce their ignorance.

[Dantheman]

This is the article. I saw the live report last night and it was sold as "vax was a medical mistake" blaming the type for vax i.e. mRNA

... why won't it link?


Maybe this...

https://keprtv.com/news/nation-world...related-risks#

Link works. First sentence is maddeningly incorrect, "A study released last Monday...found that the vaccines did cause rare cases in upticks neurological, blood, and heart-related conditions." No, not in the slightest. This study did not and cannot establish causation. Then they go straight into quoting doctors that have had their licenses revoked. We're doomed.

[Cisco Kid]

Poll on your KEPR news site. "Do you plan to get a booster?" 22% Yes. 78% No.

KEPR owned by the Sinclair Broadcast Group. Right wing propaganda outlet. Selling clicks to people who buy $400 gold sneakers. As the poll shows, propaganda works.

[KQ]

I live in a conservative part of washington state.

[Mazderati]

Maybe find another network to support?

The National Desk is described by Sinclair as a "comprehensive, commentary-free" news program, despite Sinclair reportedly requiring its local stations to broadcast conservative opinion must-run segments.[8] However, the program has been accused by Media Matters for America of airing COVID-19 misinformation,[9] inviting commentators from "anti-immigrant" organization FAIR,[10] repeatedly airing a National Taxpayers Union falsehood regarding the cost of the INVEST in America Act,[11] promoting efforts to counter inclusion of critical race theory in public schools,[12] conducting interviews challenging the results of the 2020 U.S. presidential election,[13] and concealing interviewees' support of Republican efforts to "restrict voting" while discussing election security.[14][15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Desk

[KQ]

Maybe find another network to support?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Desk

Well aware of their slant but I keep an eye on them just so I know what BS my neighbors are spouting.

The other station is better but doesnt offer the comedic relief and rarely if ever covers events in W2.

Both station broadcast out of Tri-cities.

[Cisco Kid]

I do a lot of enemy recon myself. Saddens me that we allow hate and lies to be so profitable.

[KQ]

Oh and BTW, about no one being intubated anymore according to my neighbor it's because no one ever needed it and that's why so many ppl died. The doctors were doing it wrong and exploding ppls lungs.

So there!

[skaredshtles]

Oh and BTW, about no one being intubated anymore according to my neighbor it's because no one ever needed it and that's why so many ppl died. The doctors were doing it wrong and exploding ppls lungs.

So there!

Do you find yourself regularly telling your neighbor, "That's a pile of horseshit and you should know better"?

[Percy Rideout]

[KQ]

Do you find yourself regularly telling your neighbor, "That's a pile of horseshit and you should know better"?

Nah.. no sense in it. Despite all the weirdness I've heard from neighbors they make up for it in being there when needed often times without even being asked.

One time I was attacked by one of my horses during feeding (he's a bit territorial about his food). I was bent over putting his hay down and evidently taking too long for him so he grabbed me by the lower back with his teeth an picked me up off the ground. You can imagine it hurt like hell and I let out a blood curdling scream. My neighbor 50 acres over, a person I only spoke to in passing, heard me and quickly loaded her toddler grandchildren into her truck and came racing over to check on me. I've never forgotten how without hesitation she raced over to check on someone she hardly knew.

There have been many other times neighbors have driven by, seen me working on things by myself and pulled over to lend a hand or brought a tractor to plow a drive. I even had one neighbor bring me dinner on mulitple occassions after watching me work outside all day. Despite it all ppl in farm country are amazing when it comes to looking out for and helping one another. I just stay away from talking politics and religion with them and I never post on the local FB pages unless I've found someones lost cat or dog on my property and I'm looking for its home.

[Trackhead]

Sucks to be you I guess. Did your friends need to be intubated? Don't hear much about that anymore.

I work ER and Urgent Care, and subsequently see covid cases essentially every day of all ages. Haven't seen ANYONE with any significant pulmonary burden since Omicron. No BiPAP, no high flow, no vents. Only admissions have been for covid related dehydration in elderly, mild associated acute kidney injury, etc.

In my opinion there's not much/if any clinical benefit on boosters based on my observations of vax'd/unvax'd.

[bennymac]

So couldn’t boosters be helping keep people out of your ER? Especially elderly / immunocompromised / chronically ill?

[Trackhead]

So couldn’t boosters be helping keep people out of your ER? Especially elderly / immunocompromised / chronically ill?

My point is, I haven't seen someone sick with covid for a very long time, vaccinated or not. And at this point, pretty much everyone has had covid, vaxed, or likely both. So how do you infer what the "immunity" is from, or where the potential clinical benefit is coming from?

When I was getting chemo last year, both my oncologist and the cancer team in general had not seen critically ill cancer patients with Omicron. She was "meh" on boosters. The infusion nurses had the same observations. That's not speaking of hematopoietic stem cell transplant patients, of course.

[KQ]

My point is, I haven't seen someone sick with covid for a very long time, vaccinated or not. And at this point, pretty much everyone has had covid, vaxed, or likely both. So how do you infer what the "immunity" is from, or where the potential clinical benefit is coming from?
.

My mother had Covid twice in a six week period this year. She's had all the vax. She was quite ill the last time.

I've had a couple friends on the west side who have recently contracted Covid. One for the first time (fully vaxxed) and she was very sick. The other for the 2nd time.

I've not had Covid, yet. Fully vaxxed and boosted *knocks wood*

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
I've not had Covid, yet.

That you know of.

[Trackhead]

My mother had Covid twice in a six week period this year. She's had all the vax. She was quite ill the last time.

Was she hospitalized, did she get IV fluids in the ER, did she require supplemental oxygen?

Did the vax help her? How do we infer clinical benefit in her case? You could look at her case and assume she did, or didn't have clinical benefit.

Covid sucks, it's uncomfortable, it can knock you down, but it's typically not associated with critical illness anymore. My patient demographic covers the entire spectrum of age, health, comorbidities.

[Foggy_Goggles]

it's typically not associated with critical illness anymore

Why is that? Better treatment? Changes to the virus?

[KQ]

Was she hospitalized, did she get IV fluids in the ER, did she require supplemental oxygen?

Did the vax help her? How do we infer clinical benefit in her case? You could look at her case and assume she did, or didn't have clinical benefit.

Covid sucks, it's uncomfortable, it can knock you down, but it's typically not associated with critical illness anymore. My patient demographic covers the entire spectrum of age, health, comorbidities.

She's in Assisted Living where there is nursing staff. They did want to send her to the ER but she refused and they treated her there (that was the second time she got it the first she was in a Rehab center that had full medical staff). No IV or Oxy though it would have been helpful but since she refused medical treatment not much could be done. Did get Paxlovid both times.

Did the vax help? Maybe? Probably? She did get Covid twice in 6 weeks.

I only responded because up thread your post said "My point is, I haven't seen someone sick with covid for a very long time, vaccinated or not."

[LongShortLong]

Unfortunately, there is no link to the study (and I'm too lazy to find it) but was the frequency increased for all 13 diseases? Were there any where the frequency was decreased? In other words, were the observed increases the results of statistical variation which would disappear if the rates of all 13 diseases combined? (I actually do think that the vaccines do have these rare complications, although the exact degree of increased risk reported in the study is meaningless--taking it to the decimal is absurd. I don't like sloppy science.)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...270?via%3Dihub
Some diseases were up, some were down. Most were not statistically significantly up or down. More up than down. Ofc, they selected specific diseases of interest identified in other studies.

vaccine adverse events of special interest (AESI) in 2020 [3]. AESI selection was based on their pre-established associations with immunization, specific vaccine platforms or adjuvants, or viral replication during wild-type disease; theoretical concerns related to immunopathogenesis; or supporting evidence from animal models using candidate vaccine platforms

As for the decimals - those are from the 95% confidence intervals. In the paper everything is expressed with confidence intervals. But those are confusing to the average Forbes or forum reader, and also awkward to put in a sentence. They derived these using the "exact Poisson distribution," if that means anything to you (above my paygrade).

Given all the distrust, having numbers is useful. The numbers are small, probably not clinically significant - I think "not clinically significant" is doctor-speak for don't worry about it (IANAD). Problem is I suspect most of those with trust problems aren't going to take these results as "everything is ok." It's tough when maybe 1% of the population has enough statistics background to begin to understand the study.

[Dantheman]

It's tough when maybe 1% of the population has enough statistics background to begin to understand the study.

1% is being very, very generous.