To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[PB]

Amen. We cure diseases all the time. So much so that it allows dumb people to think their dumb behaviors are healthy - and these dumb people then raise dumb kids. They also post dumb shit online that they think says something relevant.

Control is a better word than cure; cure implies it's completely gone, which is exceedingly rare. But yeah; it's one thing to not know what you don't know, but to know what you don't know and be proud of that is spitting into the Darwin wind.

[bennymac]

Antibiotics cure what used to be diseases. Some diseases are cured via surgery. Some viral illnesses are cured through treatment. Some cancers are cured with next to no chance of recurrence.

I agree lots of the time medicine is just controlling rather than eradicating completely - but it’s not rare to cure what was once chronic and even fatal.

[SumJongGuy]

MAGAholics are gloating about how God has punished Pfizer by destroying their NC plant today (tornado).. Where was gawd when all those candyasses were bellyaching about having to wear masks and take a jab?? God got us out of the pandemic thanks to god given intelligence and vaccines developed thanks to that.

[bennymac]

Those same unhealthy fucks will sing another tune when their viagra supply runs out

[k2skier112]

So basically you're saying your vaccinations are NOT the reason you haven't caught covid. It's because you live a "healthier life."

Do you not understand science, medicine or immunology? You are very confused/ignorant or you're just being obtuse

[bodywhomper]

Dude who organizes a lot of group rides in my area cancelled today’s ride and stated it’s because he has covid (went to dead and company and stayed with friends over weekend). He has a broad audience. Glad he’s sharing (and testing).

[old goat]

The primary purpose of the vaccine depends on whether you're the recipient, a doctor, an epidemiologist, a virologist, or a MAGA politician.

[byates1]

^ end thread.

[skiJ]

my thanks to those who continue to promote vaccination -
The last time I reviewed the CDC data, 2000people weekly continue to die with covid ; with the end of the Federal Health Emergency declaration in May (2023), that website has changed, and the "Data Tracker" is now an endless loop for me ;

regarding the resurrected discussion about vaccination and healthy lifestyle, I have some ideas to offer -
decades ago, my immunology professor said, ' vaccination may not prevent infection - the goal is to prevent or limit disease. '

to that end, I would offer, those vaccinated but infected and not dead, experienced the limited success of avoiding the worst ultimate individual outcome > the disease did not kill them.

regarding the 'healthy lifestyle' claim, I would urge caution - the pages of these threads contain Many examples of people who live or lived 'healthy lifestyle's who contracted covid ( and in some cases died. Or continue to experience effects of the disease ( potentially "long covid" )). and there are always those lurkers and deniers wanting to argue this idea to promote criticizing vaccination.
( whatever their motive may be, I have reached the point of feeling mostly sadness. ( and sympathy if merited ) )

again, my thanks for those promoting vaccination.
I am due for a booster myself.

Thank you. skiJ

[old goat]

The last figures I found from before the end of the emergency were about 1000/wk., and that's deaths WITH covid. The hospitals were reporting deaths to the states, the states to the CDC. The way that kind of reporting works is that a medical record tech scans the charts of dead patients and reports every case where there is a positive test. Hospitals don't have the resources to have a physician review all the cases to see which ones died BECAUSE of covid--surprising as it may seem death certificates are not ordinarily part of a hospital medical record. To get an accurate record of people dying because of covid someone would have to review the death certificates, if the particular state allows it--some do, some don't.

For me the most significant data is excess deaths, which have been zero since the beginning of the year. That doesn't mean that covid is gone or that people aren't dying from it but it gives an idea of the magnitude of the problem in relation to other causes of death.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>

For me the most significant data is excess deaths

TBH this has been the most useful metric to the layperson in this whole experience.

[SumJongGuy]

Excess deaths is pretty objective.. I was more concerned with hospital/healthcare system capacity to manage and what we could do to to help. Now it's the long term lingering stuff. The latter is beyond impossible to measure though..

[bodywhomper]

Apparently, cdc changed the baseline for accounting for excess death. Apparently, the economist published an article (paywalled ) about it in May 2023 that describes how cdc and other large disease tracking agencies altered their baseline. The claim is that excess death from Feb-May 2023 in the US is actually about 5%.

[Cisco Kid]

So vax works. Mic drop.

[bennymac]

my thanks to those who continue to promote vaccination -
The last time I reviewed the CDC data, 2000people weekly continue to die with covid ; with the end of the Federal Health Emergency declaration in May (2023), that website has changed, and the "Data Tracker" is now an endless loop for me ;

regarding the resurrected discussion about vaccination and healthy lifestyle, I have some ideas to offer -
decades ago, my immunology professor said, ' vaccination may not prevent infection - the goal is to prevent or limit disease. '

to that end, I would offer, those vaccinated but infected and not dead, experienced the limited success of avoiding the worst ultimate individual outcome > the disease did not kill them.

regarding the 'healthy lifestyle' claim, I would urge caution - the pages of these threads contain Many examples of people who live or lived 'healthy lifestyle's who contracted covid ( and in some cases died. Or continue to experience effects of the disease ( potentially "long covid" )). and there are always those lurkers and deniers wanting to argue this idea to promote criticizing vaccination.
( whatever their motive may be, I have reached the point of feeling mostly sadness. ( and sympathy if merited ) )

again, my thanks for those promoting vaccination.
I am due for a booster myself.

Thank you. skiJ

Nobody needs to urge caution around the idea that a healthy lifestyle is good for your immune system function.

If an adult is too simple minded to not get tripped up and confused when someone with a healthy lifestyle gets a bad case of covid (“how can that be? You said a healthy lifestyle was good for you! Checkmate!”) - well they are beyond reasoning with.

[skiJ]

There has been a claim was a 'health lifestyle' made covid vaccination unnecessary , that a 'healthy lifestyle' provided effective defense against covid.
( in this instance, I am referring to a series of exchanges in 2021, and a long series of case reports of people who live or lived 'healthy lifestyle's who developed covid disease.
I remember one particularly poignant report of someone here, whose reportedly Healthy friend developed debilitating covid, and was defiant that his "freedom" to Not be vaccinated was more important that his Life )

no. Vaccination has been important - even With a 'healthy lifestyle' .


I appreciate the insight to 'excess deaths' - that does seem a meaningful parameter.

I was careful and purposeful in wording, "with covid. "
I understand that not all of those people are dying Because of covid...

And while dying with covid does not equate to dying from covid,
dead is dead.

' haters are going to hate '
it appears there are lurkers on each side ;

I will continue to advocate for Vaccination.
and try to avoid the name-calling...

peace. skiJ

[bennymac]

[californiagrown]

There has been a claim was a 'health lifestyle' made covid vaccination unnecessary , that a 'healthy lifestyle' provided effective defense against covid.

In all fairness, i think most/all doctors would agree that being very healthy was/is effective* in protecting someone from covid (or any disease). But, that doesnt mean you should forgo the additional, highly effective* protection that a vaccine provides. Being healthy is super important to an effective and robust immune response to covid... similarly, vaccination is super important to an effective and robust immune response to covid. IMO, it is best thought of as both are important, and to forgo either is pretty dumb.

If you have hypertension doctors tell you to change your diet, AND they prescribe you medicine. Both are effective, so it would be fairly stupid to forgo one or the other because one is "good enough".


*dont be the dunce who sees "very effective" and hears full proof, guarantied protection*

[huckbucket]

How can anyone still doubt the covid vaccines in light of the data from the RCTs? You wanna convince someone they're ineffective or not necessary, argue against the data in the trials.

[skiJ]

I apologize for my flashback -
upthread, there was an exchange tending toward the argument about healthy lifestyle and covid vaccination - and I flashed-back to 2021, og sars-coronavirus and delta and the idea that a healthy lifestyle made vaccination unnecessary...
I was in-deep in 2021, having lost friends who died From covid, and other friends whose outcome was uncertain for weeks.

I am Not disclaiming the value of a health lifestyle, beyond the argument it made vaccination unnecessary.
And two years may be an eternity for a disease with an almost four year history.

yes - healthy living is good for overall health including a healthy immune system, And
in 2023, "being very healthy" may be effective in 'protecting someone against covid' ( depending on how you define "protecting someone from covid" ) -
death, hospitalization, probably ; severe disease, I don't know -
I know recent patients-at-Risk. But much of my circle is old - and even the 'very healthy' have at least that risk factor.

Please don't get-me-wrong -
healthy living and a healthy immune system are a great start !

I apologize for my flashback.

skiJ

[digitaldeath]

Me and all my soldiers are vaxxed and maxxed


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[byates1]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...y/70433119007/

I took this guys vax, cured me right away.

[riser4]

Me and all my soldiers are vaxxed and maxxed


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Invincible army.

[old goat]

Excess deaths is pretty objective.. I was more concerned with hospital/healthcare system capacity to manage and what we could do to to help. Now it's the long term lingering stuff. The latter is beyond impossible to measure though..

Having spent a few hours in the Tahoe Forest ER the other day--wife tripped, knocked herself out, broke her nose--I can tell you that some hospitals cannot manage even when there is no covid, no one in the waiting room, no one in the ER being examined.

[PB]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...y/70433119007/

I took this guys vax, cured me right away.

Dead people can't get covid.

Fact.