Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[riser4]

You are an engineer, though, right? Are you familiar with how much more concentrated a stream of air stays when exiting from a high pressure source as compared to the massively more dispersed sourcing that happens when air is drawn toward a vacuum? (Aka, exhale vs. inhale.)

If you look around you'll notice that there are more versions of that chart. The earlier versions showed a difference between masks worn by an infected source and those worn by an uninfected person. That difference reflects the fact that it's easier to reduce transmission by blocking the source than filtering at the uninfected. This is why masks have generally been used medically to keep the wearer from infecting others.

There are a couple of other things that are obviously half-assed about that chart, too, like the implication that any N95 mask will be 100x more effective when well-fitted. That may be true of some N95's, but the standard only requires them to be 95% efficient even fitted, so at the least some of those masks are not going to step up that much. Others may, but those aren't going to be better than well-fitted cloth until they are fitted--i.e. the flow resistance is so high in that material that a slight gap renders them useless.

They're not citing a specific mask for that chart because they made that chart up without testing anything--note the perfect symmetry. It may be a useful analogy, but it doesn't work for proving a specific point.

FTR: I'm a big fan of N95's. They've kept my wife safe hovering in people's mouths (well, that and a face shield). We sat on 2 flights totalling 9 hours in them on Tuesday. (If we come down with something I'll update.) On both flights I noticed that pretty much everyone else that was wearing a mask was wearing a protective/sealing mask, too. So Brandolini's Law fans, gather your cherries while ye may, because the apparent effectiveness of masks is about to go way up now that they are only being worn by people who give a shit and keep them on (even while eating, in many cases).

How do you eat through a mask???

[Trackhead]

Also pretty dumb to say that cloth/surgical masks “do nothing”… if people bother to wear them, they double/quadruple the time to infectious exposure. That seems pretty fucking significant to me. But yeah, I guess if people don’t wear them they won’t work at all…

That mask/time to infection graph is ridiculous. The authors are “certified industrial hygienists”. The references they cited for the graph do not speak of time to infectious exposure, and “infectious dose” is anything but definitive. They just made a pretty graph that some other chump layperson in the media picked up and widely published, now it’s assumed factual.

[huckbucket]

Second booster Wed night .... full Pfizer for the primary and the first booster. Went Moderna for this one. Kicked my ass. Just back to planet earth today.

[SumJongGuy]

1600 pages in and we're still feeling the need to point out that a tightly fitting good mask is better than a poorly fitting poor mask.. and debating whether a poor mask is better than absolutely nothing? OK..

[jono]

How do you eat through a mask???

You don't eat through the mask, of course. But you don't have to breathe while the mask is down. Inhale; pull mask down/up; take bite/drink; replace mask/fit in place; exhale. (Admittedly, this will be easier when my Mustache Mask (tm) finally hits the market. )

It's easier than clearing a snorkel after a dive. I thought maybe it was just me, but the guy in the seat next to me was doing it, too. I'm sure this is not recommended procedure for people using masks around known hazards, but it's better than sucking up the air of all the coughing toddlers in the rows behind while you eat. I'll sit next to that guy again anytime.

[oldnew_guy]

We can search pubmed and post confirmation bias all day long, or just agree to disagree. I’ll go with the latter for now.

Maybe you should steer clear of this thread then because one of the benefits of it has been people backing up or explaining their thoughts (right or wrong) with facts.

Not a good look to come in and make a sweeping claim (that I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with) and then get pissy when someone politely asks for some science.

[skiskiskiskiski]

We can search pubmed and post confirmation bias all day long, or just agree to disagree. I’ll go with the latter for now.

Or you can stop being a big, ugly asshole and endure a slight discomfort to protect other people for a little while.

I can't believe what fucking little selfish babies populate our country.

The funniest part is that the biggest temper tantrum throwing toddlers are also those that like to play tough guy...

Just wear a fucking mask around strangers/vulnerable people.

Jesus.

[cat in january]

I don’t see mask mandates coming back unless it gets really bad. I have an immune compromised neighbor who would readily take the vaccine but his doctor advises against it. It’s for these folks we were supposed to wear masks. Oh well usa home of the I.

Having been boosted and still caught Covid feeling relatively safe for a while so wait until Fall for second booster. The unknowns of long term effects still concerns me. Plan to wear a n95 on plane rides or long bus rides. Didn’t go to concerts or indoor restaurants last year. Likely continuing that pattern. Sure do have mask exhaustion like everyone else

[The SnowShow]

Or you can stop being a big, ugly asshole and endure a slight discomfort to protect other people for a little while.

I can't believe what fucking little selfish babies populate our country.

The funniest part is that the biggest temper tantrum throwing toddlers are also those that like to play tough guy...

Just wear a fucking mask around strangers/vulnerable people.

Jesus.

These past two years have been eye opening. I knew we were a selfish, dumb country but the level to which we are came out during the pandemic and it was/is staggering and depressing.

[paulster2626]

I dont give a fuck what people do in places that nobody HAS to go like bars, restaurants, hockey games, vanilla ice concerts, etc.

I care about protecting the vulnerable people in our society in places they cannot reasonable avoid.

Grocery store, pharmacy, dmv, doctors offices, hospitals, public transit, etc should be mask required.

Its not often people have to be in those places long.

Suck it up and give a fuck about someone other than yourself for a few minutes.

I cannot even fathom being so selfish to be unwilling to wear a mask. I cant even comprehend it. It makes me so sad for all of us.

Oh I still put on the old surgical that hangs on my wiper controls when I go to these places, for those reasons. I was just sayin' once I went to a bunch of other places I stopped feeling weird not having one on very quickly. I will probably wear a mask on airplanes for the rest of my life. This pandemic has shown me how gross we all actually are.

But thanks for the sanctimonious rant, ya turd.

[Mofro261]

You are an engineer, though, right? Are you familiar with how much more concentrated a stream of air stays when exiting from a high pressure source as compared to the massively more dispersed sourcing that happens when air is drawn toward a vacuum? (Aka, exhale vs. inhale.)

If you look around you'll notice that there are more versions of that chart. The earlier versions showed a difference between masks worn by an infected source and those worn by an uninfected person. That difference reflects the fact that it's easier to reduce transmission by blocking the source than filtering at the uninfected. This is why masks have generally been used medically to keep the wearer from infecting others.

There are a couple of other things that are obviously half-assed about that chart, too, like the implication that any N95 mask will be 100x more effective when well-fitted. That may be true of some N95's, but the standard only requires them to be 95% efficient even fitted, so at the least some of those masks are not going to step up that much. Others may, but those aren't going to be better than well-fitted cloth until they are fitted--i.e. the flow resistance is so high in that material that a slight gap renders them useless.

They're not citing a specific mask for that chart because they made that chart up without testing anything--note the perfect symmetry. It may be a useful analogy, but it doesn't work for proving a specific point.

FTR: I'm a big fan of N95's. They've kept my wife safe hovering in people's mouths (well, that and a face shield). We sat on 2 flights totalling 9 hours in them on Tuesday. (If we come down with something I'll update.) On both flights I noticed that pretty much everyone else that was wearing a mask was wearing a protective/sealing mask, too. So Brandolini's Law fans, gather your cherries while ye may, because the apparent effectiveness of masks is about to go way up now that they are only being worn by people who give a shit and keep them on (even while eating, in many cases).

N95's are rated pf10. They meet a 90% filtration standard based on filtration+fit. The filter itself often will be 99% efficient but fit rarely will approach that level of particle exclusion.

They used to actually put people in coal dust chambers to measure that shit..

[Mofro261]

Charts are whack anyway, these newer 2022 viruses are <5min for sure.

[riser4]

You don't eat through the mask, of course. But you don't have to breathe while the mask is down. Inhale; pull mask down/up; take bite/drink; replace mask/fit in place; exhale. (Admittedly, this will be easier when my Mustache Mask (tm) finally hits the market. )

It's easier than clearing a snorkel after a dive. I thought maybe it was just me, but the guy in the seat next to me was doing it, too. I'm sure this is not recommended procedure for people using masks around known hazards, but it's better than sucking up the air of all the coughing toddlers in the rows behind while you eat. I'll sit next to that guy again anytime.

Interesting. IV meth would be easier and safer.

Unfortunately I really need to wear a beard. I shaved enough to wear an n-95 when my wife had teh 'VID. That was awful and my chins are just now covered up again.

[jono]

Interesting. IV meth would be easier and safer.

Unfortunately I really need to wear a beard. I shaved enough to wear an n-95 when my wife had teh 'VID. That was awful and my chins are just now covered up again.

Sounds like you really need the Mustache Mask. I'll add you to the beta team.

[skiskiskiskiski]

You don't eat through the mask, of course. But you don't have to breathe while the mask is down. Inhale; pull mask down/up; take bite/drink; replace mask/fit in place; exhale. (Admittedly, this will be easier when my Mustache Mask (tm) finally hits the market. )

It's easier than clearing a snorkel after a dive. I thought maybe it was just me, but the guy in the seat next to me was doing it, too. I'm sure this is not recommended procedure for people using masks around known hazards, but it's better than sucking up the air of all the coughing toddlers in the rows behind while you eat. I'll sit next to that guy again anytime.

This is how you do it if you HAVE to eat your egg McMuffin or drink your coffee in a place like the dr office waiting room and you cannot wait or excuse yourself and go outside or to your car or somewhere where you arent potentially exposing vulnerable people in place they cannot reasonably avoid.

[jono]

N95's are rated pf10. They meet a 90% filtration standard based on filtration+fit. The filter itself often will be 99% efficient but fit rarely will approach that level of particle exclusion.

They used to actually put people in coal dust chambers to measure that shit..

Where do you see the 90% number? I thought I'd verified that N95 actually meant 95% in NIOSH's spec at one point, but I'm not readily finding the spec on their website now.

I probably worded the bit about 100x improvement sloppily. What I meant was that, practically speaking, any mask that loses 99% of its effectiveness (as implied on that chart) from poor fit is probably either Really poorly fitting or has such high density that any gap almost turns it into a shield. I think I've only worn 4 or 5 brands, but none of them were that hard to breathe through.

[skaredshtles]

<snip> my chins are just now covered up again.

I laffed.

[Mofro261]

Where do you see the 90% number? I thought I'd verified that N95 actually meant 95% in NIOSH's spec at one point, but I'm not readily finding the spec on their website now.

I probably worded the bit about 100x improvement sloppily. What I meant was that, practically speaking, any mask that loses 99% of its effectiveness (as implied on that chart) from poor fit is probably either Really poorly fitting or has such high density that any gap almost turns it into a shield. I think I've only worn 4 or 5 brands, but none of them were that hard to breathe through.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-...APF)%20of%2010.

tldr/ I spent nearly 4 weeks on a Jury trial in Oct 2020 listening to no less than 4 Industrial Hygenists, 3 Particle Experts, Filtration experts (and 2 maritime ship experts) in an asbestos case against 3M and the precursor to the modern day N95. Many pictures of faces with coal dust streaks around the edge of the mask and much discussion of "pressure drop" that occurs as the mask filter begins to wet out over time spent in the mask and breathing gets more difficult.

Masks fall into general catogories depending on use, and while the fabric/weave of the face covering for an N95 must exceed 95% particle filtration, most of the filters will catch >99% of the particluates largely due to electrostatics, some nearing 99.9%. But the reality is it is the face seal that allows the majority of particles to be inhaled/exhaled, so the N95 type masks are assigned a Protection factor of 10, meaning a 90% reduction in particle inhalation. But at an individual level with many different faces to fit, this could be anywhere between a PF of 5-20+, so yes almost 10-100x less efficient for the mask overall vs the mask material's filtration potential. The chart authors were just using the filtration #'s with 2 people with idealized fit to get a more impressive 2500hrs.

[Trackhead]

Maybe you should steer clear of this thread then because one of the benefits of it has been people backing up or explaining their thoughts (right or wrong) with facts.

Not a good look to come in and make a sweeping claim (that I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with) and then get pissy when someone politely asks for some science.

TGR is hardly a scholarly discussion. But to your point, some data from the CDC.

[Buzzworthy]

TGR is hardly a scholarly discussion. But to your point, some data from the CDC.

Sure, but being on the front lines of healthcare, you have a plethora of info to add.

[Trackhead]

Sure, but being on the front lines of healthcare, you have a plethora of info to add.

Perhaps on an individual level, but I’m speaking out of line in terms of mask mandates. I guess in the end, the evidence for/against them remains anything but clear. Too many uncontrollable variables. Logically you think they would work on individual level, but does it change anything down the line? I doubt it. I see covid as inevitable, we’re all getting it, masks or not.

No reason to get emotional and entrenched either. Too much out of context emotion on this forum, and social media.

Still have not seen a covid positive for over a month. Plenty of other seasonal respiratory pathogens right now.

Omicron was underwhelming in Montana. Low vax rate. Time to stop worrying until there’s something to worry about.

[Trackhead]

How about some mixed covid/AK skiing stoke? View from my hangar. Better view than from inside the Isopod. I wonder if our PAPRs would double as a snorkel/avalung/airbag? This was covid circa 2020, now wearing N95 seems fine.
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[bodywhomper]

TGR is hardly a scholarly discussion. But to your point, some data from the CDC.

Thanks. That chart was useful. None of the peer review articles that google found for me included omicron wave #1 in their analysis/assessments.

[oldnew_guy]

TGR is hardly a scholarly discussion. But to your point, some data from the CDC.

Thanks for indulging. It’s not a scholarly discussion but it can trend more towards mutual understanding and respect if we keep it grounded at least a little in facts and data.

[RoooR]

TGR is hardly a scholarly discussion. But to your point, some data from the CDC.

Where's this from? Seen it on social media but would like to find for myself.