Mammoth 2021-2022 snow mandate thread.

[davjr96]

Air B&B has really fucked up the long term rental situation for people. I don't know what the solution is, other than building new properties with deed restrictions on being used as a STR. They need to build a fuck ton more up there and there is room to do so, but every builder wants to build million dollar homes, not more reasonably priced homes or Dog forbid actual apartment rentals.

Why not effectively outlaw STR in town limits like Jackson? Not saying it would pass a vote or anything though.

Personally I do my best to only stay in hotels and avoid STRs when visiting mountain towns but realize that does pretty much nothing except make myself feel better.

[Benny Profane]

To add to what others have said, housing has become a huge issue in Mammoth.

We don't have a ski lease for the first time in 14 years due to our landlord selling the condo and basically nothing on the long term rental market.

For us that is a nuisance. It means we have to plan, and spend more, two things we are not really used to. It is pushing us to maybe buy something, despite the prices.

For the locals, it is a MUCH bigger issue. Being a weekender and not having a ski lease sucks, but the housing situation for locals is simply a disaster. The long term rental market is non-existent, and what is available is very pricey on local wages.

I've talked to lots of locals and heard stories of people who have been renting the same place for a decade getting the boot after it sells. With the spike in prices lots of the buyers want to airbnb to get enough money, renting a 2 bedroom place for 2000 simply won't cut it with the mortgage they are taking on.

The place we have been renting for the last 5 years went for 560k, which was basically asking price. It probably needs some work, in the pictures I could see the notes the owner put in place to warn us to be careful with the sink drain. The complex does not have a hot tub and the parking is limited, we usually parked in the public lot on Lake Mary. It absolutely blows me away that they got as much as they did for it. There are actually other places for similar, or lower, prices that I would prefer. I wonder if the new owners have negotiated Tyrol Lane when it is icy.....

Obviously, the seasonal locals have it worse than the long-term guys. Living has always been tough in ski towns, my second year in Tahoe I lived in a weekly motel in Reno for the first month and a half, but the pandemic and airbnb has made things much worse.

Well that sucks. How's June Lake?

[Boomer28]

My 2 cents regarding the housing issue:

1) There has been very little new construction in the last 3 years in Mammoth Lakes. Hard to tell for sure but somewhere on the order of 30-40 units total, most being SFR.

2) The majority of these new units are Million Dollar + homes

Why? Well Mammoth's uniqueness of being in the middle of butt-fuck nowhere is also a curse when it comes to construction. A few local GCs basically have a monopoly and materials & labor all come at a massive premium due to the distance they need to travel. Build costs currently are in the $500-600/sqft range which is bonkers (something you'd usually see on a mid/high 7-figure house with fancy af finishes way above 3k sqft GLA).

Yes there are lots for sale from $200-500k each but even a modest 2k sqft home works out to a cost well over a million bucks in the end. Crews are actually making better money these days which is a plus but the GC monopoly & bonkers pricing of lumber, copper, drywall, etc. added to the freight costs is going to be an issue for a while...

I know a guy who is in a construction related business who sourced & hauled almost all his materials on rented trucks over 3-4 trips and rented a house for his crew for 6 months in the summer so they could knock it out before winter and got it done for around $400 which is still a lot.

In conclusion demand is hitting supply in der poopenhausen.

[TahoeJ]

$500 - $600 per square foot is pretty standard in most of California these days... not just in the middle of nowhere.

[Boomer28]

$500 - $600 per square foot is pretty standard in most of California these days... not just in the middle of nowhere.

Respectfully, no. I work in construction finance and look at build sheets on the daily. The only time I see build costs that high is when it's some monstrosity of a lux build or there is some wonky shit like a slope build with caissons and varsity level engineering involved (basements are becoming a thing out here above a certain price point due to the tax arbitrage).

It's not $200-250 anymore, but it aint that high either. Materials prices have gone up a shit load but for most "normal" builds it's ~350-425 max.

[TahoeJ]

Respectfully, no. I work in construction finance and look at build sheets on the daily. The only time I see build costs that high is when it's some monstrosity of a lux build or there is some wonky shit like a slope build with caissons and varsity level engineering involved (basements are becoming a thing out here above a certain price point due to the tax arbitrage).

It's not $200-250 anymore, but it aint that high either. Materials prices have gone up a shit load but for most "normal" builds it's ~350-425 max.

Cool, want to build me 10 houses in Sonoma County (or around Tahoe) for that so I can make a killing? It’s absolutely $475+ in both. Have plenty of friends and family in the biz.

[Boomer28]

Cool, want to build me 10 houses in Sonoma County (or around Tahoe) for that so I can make a killing? It’s absolutely $475+ in both. Have plenty of friends and family in the biz.

Yea....both of those areas are not exactly flat-land urban centers first of all and suffer form some of the same economic factors that Mammoth does.

Quick math for a ground-up in LA right now (west of 405, but not beach adjacent).

Lot cost: $1mm (being generous here, I saw 3 tear down SF lots in the south bay trade over this in the last month, but let's use round numbers)
Build: 2,500sqft @ your $475/sqft = $1.187mm cost
Total Costs before debt service, taxes, insurance, transfer tax, broker fees, title, blah blah blah: $2.187mm. That's $875/sqft.

Now lets say the builder is trying to make a 20% ROI net of the above extras(slim, most would not work for this), that translates to a $2.5mm+ sales price, or $1k/sqft which you DO see (and higher...)in certain areas. See the problem?

Real life example: 2112 Ruhland Ave, Redondo Beach, CA 90278
Bought for $850k, tear down. New 4,117sqft build sold 2 years later for $3.15mm ($765/sqft). If it cost him $475/sqft to build he lost almost a quarter million dollars. I know this builder and he is not poor.

[TahoeJ]

^^ Sure, just saying that Santa Rosa with nearly 200k people isn’t exactly the middle of nowhere. I think the distinction is places that people fled to from major metros during Covid are all outrageously expensive to build in right now.

[Boomer28]

^^ Sure, just saying that Santa Rosa with nearly 200k people isn’t exactly the middle of nowhere. I think the distinction is places that people fled to from major metros during Covid are all outrageously expensive to build in right now.

Fair point. It's still tertiary from a lot of perspectives and there is SO much demand in the core markets so that hurts those areas even more. The good thing is that I think the materials component is going to ease significantly but who the fuck knows...lumber futures are off the spring '21 highs but still 100% up from the early fall levels so I'm putting my crystal ball away...

[Pinned]

Based on the experience of some family and friends, Mono County is also not exactly the easiest place to build when it comes to permitting and approvals either. Maybe it's easier in Mammoth proper, but it seems that's yet another thing making housing in Mammoth tough. If you're gonna jump through hoops, I imagine you want a big return.

Skiing was nice today - blue skies, the snow got reasonably soft by the mid-afternoon, and it was ski on chairs until about 1:30.

[hutash]

Having just gone through the whole permitting and building experience in my own California county, I can say it is a real PITA, but not a single requirement was unreasonably, and in the end all the headaches and hassles left a much better build. Mammoth has had some really loose building rules in the realtor controlled council days, and suffered because of it. Building is better though much more expensive because of the rules and regulations. I don't know the answer to affordable housing in Mammoth, or anywhere in CA, but shoddy construction is not it. No guarantee my house won't burn again in a wildfire, but it is a much, much safer build then the original 50@ build. Mammoth house are even more prone to wildfires, so expensive fire safety rules are not unreasonable.

[claresdad]

Sympathetic to everything said here. Haven't rebuilt in Santa Rosa yet and wearily watching materials cost rise without end it seems. I have done the owner builder thing and it's flat out hard to build in California no matter where you are for all the reasons stated. Still, Mammoth is a special place and obviously needs more housing...but I hope they are tough as hell on builders and developers and real estate folks. Shoddy planning and builders who don't play by the rules is something we ALL pay for one way or another.

[Boomer28]

Having just gone through the whole permitting and building experience in my own California county, I can say it is a real PITA, but not a single requirement was unreasonably, and in the end all the headaches and hassles left a much better build. Mammoth has had some really loose building rules in the realtor controlled council days, and suffered because of it. Building is better though much more expensive because of the rules and regulations. I don't know the answer to affordable housing in Mammoth, or anywhere in CA, but shoddy construction is not it. No guarantee my house won't burn again in a wildfire, but it is a much, much safer build then the original 50@ build. Mammoth house are even more prone to wildfires, so expensive fire safety rules are not unreasonable.

As someone in the industry I actually agree. CA plans/permitting are really not that bad if you have your shit together. People that I see get in trouble are trying to play it too fast/loose and using the wrong architects/engineers. It's a lot of fine print but if you play by the rules it's a pretty clear cut process.

[Long duc dong]

Here is some footage from 1/11 and 1/12. It is just some Climax laps and Dropout lap. It wasn't classic Mammoth buff, but it was edgable and fun, winter snow with a bit of buff.

Some areas are pretty smooth and fast, or at least they were last week. Climax was pretty much the best I skied, the skier's left area towards Sign Line, so I just spent most of my time lapping that. The Dropouts had some good stuff too. Wipeouts were pretty smooth, some good turns but a bit firm.

As others have said, the slide ripped pretty low in the noids area. One patroller I talked to said that in spots it ripped down the the October storm layer. It really didn't look appealing. It was actually better when I was there in late December before the storms. I did see some people making some decent looking turns in the area between Scotties and Monuments, but you really had to pick and choose. I decided to stick with Climax, Dropouts and Dave's.

I'm hoping more weather will come soon, but the mountain was skiing pretty well.

[hutash]

Yeah, we had a great architect, who used a good engineer, and our builder used all the right soils people, etc. We had one small issue due to a dick of a city inspector because some I wasn't dotted, but the rest was pretty much rubber stamped. It wasn't a cheap build, but the final results were superb. Just finishing our pond, and then we are pretty much complete, other then a few landscaping tweaks, which with my wife will be on going for the next twenty years.

I need to do a final TR someday soon to go with the first TR of the devastation, and second mid build.

[45hill]

Had the whole lake to ourselves from 7-8:45. So many people showed up when we were leaving at 9:30.

[Long duc dong]

Had the whole lake to ourselves from 7-8:45. So many people showed up when we were leaving at 9:30.

That is a beautiful shot! Great reflection.

[TahoeJ]

As someone in the industry I actually agree. CA plans/permitting are really not that bad if you have your shit together. People that I see get in trouble are trying to play it too fast/loose and using the wrong architects/engineers. It's a lot of fine print but if you play by the rules it's a pretty clear cut process.

Agreed. The biggest mistake is people who hire "designers" and not actual licensed architects. I've seen it lead to so many delays and other costly problems where the designer wasn't familiar with various county / city code nuances.

Buddy of mine said he saw nearly a dozen slide for lifers on the mountain yesterday. Gotta love holiday weekends.

[Shred Baron]

Buddy of mine said he saw nearly a dozen slide for lifers on the mountain yesterday. Gotta love holiday weekends.

Wait, I’m going to be visiting this weekend, do I need to bring my whippet for inbounds?


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[Ninjax]

New member here. I live in Southern CA and ski Mammoth most of the days I am able to get on skis. I am not the ripper that most on the forum are, but I love it and am always trying to figure out ways to increase the number of days on hill. As of late, I am getting around 20 days a season but what's holding me back more than anything is cost.

I was wondering what regular mammoth skiers here do about lodging costs. From people that I've met along the way that get a lot of days in: some work/live in Mammoth, some live outside Mammoth and are wealthy and have their own place in Mammoth, some have a van/rv and camp. For those people who are not wealthy and camp/RV/hostel is not an option, what do you all do? And how do you do it without hurting the town of Mammoth and its workers? I have been doing a mix of hotels and condo rentals, but it's crazy expensive and now I'm seeing that condo rentals may not be the best for those that live/work in Mammoth.

[claresdad]

Here is some footage from 1/11 and 1/12. It is just some Climax laps and Dropout lap. It wasn't classic Mammoth buff, but it was edgable and fun, winter snow with a bit of buff.

Some areas are pretty smooth and fast, or at least they were last week. Climax was pretty much the best I skied, the skier's left area towards Sign Line, so I just spent most of my time lapping that. The Dropouts had some good stuff too. Wipeouts were pretty smooth, some good turns but a bit firm.

As others have said, the slide ripped pretty low in the noids area. One patroller I talked to said that in spots it ripped down the the October storm layer. It really didn't look appealing. It was actually better when I was there in late December before the storms. I did see some people making some decent looking turns in the area between Scotties and Monuments, but you really had to pick and choose. I decided to stick with Climax, Dropouts and Dave's.

I'm hoping more weather will come soon, but the mountain was skiing pretty well.

Looks like a great time. Count me jealous.

[comish]

New member here. I live in Southern CA and ski Mammoth most of the days I am able to get on skis. I am not the ripper that most on the forum are, but I love it and am always trying to figure out ways to increase the number of days on hill. As of late, I am getting around 20 days a season but what's holding me back more than anything is cost.

I was wondering what regular mammoth skiers here do about lodging costs. From people that I've met along the way that get a lot of days in: some work/live in Mammoth, some live outside Mammoth and are wealthy and have their own place in Mammoth, some have a van/rv and camp. For those people who are not wealthy and camp/RV/hostel is not an option, what do you all do? And how do you do it without hurting the town of Mammoth and its workers? I have been doing a mix of hotels and condo rentals, but it's crazy expensive and now I'm seeing that condo rentals may not be the best for those that live/work in Mammoth.

We did a season long lease with 4 couples for probably 6 to 8 years before buying a condo at the bottom of the market about a decade ago. The season lease is much tougher to find these days, but they are still out there. A 4 bedroom house was totally reasonable when split 8 ways. Worked great till we started having kids, start looking in the summer and if I remember right we generally had it locked up by Labor Day +/-. We would rent from scheduled opening day through May.

Good luck.

[Ninjax]

We did a season long lease with 4 couples for probably 6 to 8 years before buying a condo at the bottom of the market about a decade ago. The season lease is much tougher to find these days, but they are still out there. A 4 bedroom house was totally reasonable when split 8 ways. Worked great till we started having kids, start looking in the summer and if I remember right we generally had it locked up by Labor Day +/-. We would rent from scheduled opening day through May.

Good luck.

Thanks for this info, I will look into this! I had no idea that these existed. I think it may be possible for us as I know at least a few others in a similar situation.

Congrats on purchasing at the right time. Living the dream!

[hutash]

There is no "cheap" way to ski, it's an expensive sport, it costs can be shaved.

Buying used gear helps,season passes are a must, pack your own food while in town, and pack a lunch and a few beers on the hill.

Lodging is the toughest nut to crack, especially in a socially responsible way. Ski leases are probably the best, but do have a impact on locals housing option. Camping is probably the cheapest way, especially come spring, but one can camp down near Bishop and avoid snow most of the time. Buying a cheap RV and staying at Mammoth RV camp, or down in Bishop works, and what we did when the kids were little (back in the day when you could stay in the June Mt parking lot.)

The cheapest option is to take up tennis instead.

[hutash]

Oh, and join a ski club. Many has discount lodging and bus trips regularly.