P18 Pivot FKS forward pressure - ignore the indicator?

[Dee Hubbs]

The DIN indicator is just that. When my car speedometer is broken, I'm still doing 60 along side all the other cars on the freeway.
Take your good binding, crank it all the way to the max, count the number of turns back until the indicator reads 11. Now do the same to the broken one, counting down the established turns to 11.

[Vitamin I]

...I prefer the angle to be around 60 deg instead of 75-80 deg (ballpark)...

Not only does that waste 15 degrees of elasticity (as stated by gwat), the metal dildo at this not-by-design angle will chew "dents" into most ski boots, especially at that higher-than-designed forward pressure.

After you have used the methods in this thread to finish setting the forward pressure, always do a final check by looking at the dildo/boot contact points from the side, and verify that the dildo's contact surface is as horizontal as the horizontal top surface of the boot heel's DIN interface. If forward pressure is too high, then dildo won't go up to a high enough angle, so the dildo contact point will not reach a horizontal angle, and will chew your boot at the contact point.

ALSO, sometimes after setting FKS forward pressure perfectly in a warm house, I can take the skis outside on a very, very cold day and discover that the forward pressure has become way tighter. Not sure if the binding is icing up or not on these very cold days, but it's a bummer for the FKS heel design, and another reason why I prefer Salomon 916/920.

.

[auvgeek]

Edited my post to remove that bit about the angles since you all say I'm wrong, and I have no interest in continuing this argument. Maybe my eyeballing the angle is off. Just make sure the forward pressure is high enough, which was the point of that post to begin with.

FWIW, I've used four pairs of boots with FKS setting the forward pressure my way, and none have ever developed any indentation in the heel.

[Dee Hubbs]

Maybe you're just bad at geometry?

[auvgeek]

Maybe you're just bad at geometry?

Yeah, if it's not of the algebraic or differential variety, I'm pretty much lost.

[Groomer Gambler]

The DIN indicator is just that. When my car speedometer is broken, I'm still doing 60 along side all the other cars on the freeway.
Take your good binding, crank it all the way to the max, count the number of turns back until the indicator reads 11. Now do the same to the broken one, counting down the established turns to 11.

Makes sense, thanks!

[MRR11]

If you take apart the heelpiece, the DIN indicator is attached to the screw (I think, or something else in there that turns with the screw at least, it's been a while) by a plastic clip that goes about 3\4 around the screw or other piece. If that breaks off (heelpiece worn through from stepping out with your poles by chance?) then your plastic DIN indicator will be stuck wherever it was when it broke off. This can be fixed if it's not completely chewed up and all the material is still there.

Bindings will still work fine, but tough to know where your DIN's set at. Best bet is to back the DIN screw all the way out on both heels and then count the turns on the good heel to your desired DIN, then do​ your best to replicate on the bad heel. Not an exact science obviously, but you should be able to get close. Get them tested after doing this if you want to be certain.

[Dee Hubbs]

If you take apart the heelpiece, the DIN indicator is attached to the screw (I think, or something else in there that turns with the screw at least, it's been a while)

Best bet is to back the DIN screw all the way out on both heels and then count the turns on the good heel to your desired DIN, then do​ your best to replicate on the bad heel.

The heel assembly top half and bottom half are held together by a roll pin that is tricky to remove, making it not a simple procedure.

As mention in my previous post, screwing to maximum DIN and counting backwards is a more accurate technique than unscrewing to minimum DIN, because there is an absolute stop at maximum, whereas unscrewing to minimum you can continue to unscrew to disassembly. It's hard to feel where -8 and disassembly begins.

I have used P18 exclusively for 20+ years.

[MRR11]

I didn't realize this thread went to the second page and didn't see your earlier reply.

If you back out all the way with the pin still in, there will be a hard stop at the minimum as well. If the pin has been removed or if it's an older version without a pin, you can count the turns once the threads have re-engaged after backing the screw out all the way (likely pulling the cover off with it), which is pretty easy to figure out when they re-engage.

Different approach to doing the same thing, either way will work just fine.

[klauss]

Yeah I just re-adjusted the forward pressure on my set of looks. I don't quite understand the love for these things. Salomons are easier to mount/adjust/brakes stop the ski better/brakes replacements are cheaper/easier to step into/etc.

The kids are all about em.

[Aus George]

Yeah I just re-adjusted the forward pressure on my set of looks. I don't quite understand the love for these things. Salomons are easier to mount/adjust/brakes stop the ski better/brakes replacements are cheaper/easier to step into/etc.

The kids are all about em.

Do you enjoy having ACL's? Or happy to piss them off so you can use a binding thats easy to adjust and step into? I'll take my knees thanks.

[klauss]

Do you enjoy having ACL's? Or happy to piss them off so you can use a binding thats easy to adjust and step into? I'll take my knees thanks.

Go get some knee bindings ya punter.

that is not a claim that can be made for pivots

[doebedoe]

Go get some knee bindings ya punter.

that is not a claim that can be made for pivots

+100.

Pivots don't release laterally at the heel. The can't -- put you boot in the heel and you'll notice the arms connecting to the dildo block lateral movement. Lateral release at the heel is the only way to prevent ACL injuries. Knee bindings are the only alpine binding with lateral release at the heel.

[doebedoe]

Yeah I just re-adjusted the forward pressure on my set of looks. I don't quite understand the love for these things. Salomons are easier to mount/adjust/brakes stop the ski better/brakes replacements are cheaper/easier to step into/etc.

The kids are all about em.

The last a long time. Shorter mounting length == more natural ski flex + reduced ski length. Lots of elasticity in the heel allows running lower DINs without pre-release.

But yeah, I find STH/Solly/Attacks preferable because of the lack of adjustment, ease of mount, and brake swapping.

[AlpiNord]

I don't think too much forward pressure should drop the angle, though I usually mount at 295mm for my 298mm boot so "too much" forward pressure lands me right in the middle of the adjustment legs, which retains correct angles. I imagine if the adjustment legs were all the way open or all the way closed it would cause issues depending on the boot, regardless of correct or incorrect pressure.

This comment has me wondering why there would be any expectation of change in performance if you are in the adjustment range?

I'm about to mount a 298mm boot but and considering 'what ifs' in the event I get a different flavor boot with longer BSL or to allow adjustment for my son's 306mm BSL boot. The plan was to mount for a 302mm in the middle of the 8mm adjustment range.

Depending on what day and what the weather is doing, Plan B (or A) is to mount 298 at the shortest setting and then adjust back for an 8mm bigger boot.

[Timberridge]

The last a long time. Shorter mounting length == more natural ski flex + reduced ski length. Lots of elasticity in the heel allows running lower DINs without pre-release.

Yup. Pivot heels are a PITA. If you want a non-Pivot w/ a very short mount length, Look makes the Rockerace in a 5-14 DIN with SPX heel. It is at least as short a mount as the Pivot (they put 4 screws directly under the heel instead of 2, eliminating the two back screws on the regular SPX) and it has more BSL range than Pivot. You'll need to grab a wider SPX brake for non-race skis. You can find new ones for $180-200 if you look a bit.

But yeah, for everyday skis, hard to beat Attacks.

[AlpiNord]

For grins:

[AlpiNord]

While messing around with the settings on a test mount and comparing it to past Pivot mounts, it's interesting to note that the marked BSL on the boot is very close to the dimension from the toe to heel when the dildo is pressed against the ski. These were mounted basically as stated previously with the heel just brushing the cup and the binding snapping up. This measurement might be useful to double check yourself. It'd be interesting to hear what others are seeing for this measurement relative to BSL.

The setting marks difference range around 2mm between the 3 mounts. Some fine tuning should close this difference.

The actual BSL is 296mm and not the marked BSL of 298mm, measured at the sole.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

This comment has me wondering why there would be any expectation of change in performance if you are in the adjustment range?

I'm about to mount a 298mm boot but and considering 'what ifs' in the event I get a different flavor boot with longer BSL or to allow adjustment for my son's 306mm BSL boot. The plan was to mount for a 302mm in the middle of the 8mm adjustment range.

Depending on what day and what the weather is doing, Plan B (or A) is to mount 298 at the shortest setting and then adjust back for an 8mm bigger boot.

Per Climberjoe's comment, " I imagine if the adjustment legs were all the way open or all the way closed it would cause issues depending on the boot, regardless of correct or incorrect pressure.":, I do not agree with this. I think if all the way in or out and forward pressure is ok and your boot fits between the struts you're fine.

I am about to find out for sure this season as I am going to ski a couple pairs wound all the way in.

FWIW I've never had my boot heels brushing the cup but rather a 2 to 3mm gap: never had an issue and fp seems right on or erring on the higher side (I check by lifting up and pushing down hard on boot in binding and dialing in the heel till no more brake movement then going an extra turn in).

My belief is these bindings have more than 8mm of adjustment at the heel and those bands on the arms are more reference points to get the adjustment even on each rather than limit markers.

[Dee Hubbs]

Pivots only for 15 years. I’ve mounted, bent brakes, rebuilt, swapped springs in every variation of these bindings. In my experience the boot heel brushing the heel piece is almost always a perfect indicator that the forward pressure will be perfect.

[galibier_numero_un]

While messing around with the settings on a test mount and comparing it to past Pivot mounts, it's interesting to note that the marked BSL on the boot is very close to the dimension from the toe to heel when the dildo is pressed against the ski. These were mounted basically as stated previously with the heel just brushing the cup and the binding snapping up. This measurement might be useful to double check yourself. It'd be interesting to hear what others are seeing for this measurement relative to BSL.

The setting marks difference range around 2mm between the 3 mounts. Some fine tuning should close this difference.

The actual BSL is 296mm and not the marked BSL of 298mm, measured at the sole.

Thanks for documenting your approach, Terry. It's a good cross-validation. Lot's of different ways to get there but having a metric as a double check never hurts.

With my Lange XT-130 Freetours (size 25.5, marked as well as measuring 296mm), I'm measuring 296mm from toe to heel cup on my Dual Pivot 14 WTRs - measuring the way you depicted in your photo. At this setting, the forward pressure indicator says to ease up just a bit (by maybe 2-3mm).

... Thom

[Kied]

He is saying that if your dildo is at 60 degrees, the forward pressure is too low, I agree with him. A dildo dangle angle of 80 degrees or so would mean greater forward pressure, and more potential elastic travel. Also, are you in a size 22 boot? That is a really high din for someone your size.

Ah... shorter boot = higher din, longer boot = lower din.

[slowroastin]

Yup. Pivot heels are a PITA. If you want a non-Pivot w/ a very short mount length, Look makes the Rockerace in a 5-14 DIN with SPX heel. It is at least as short a mount as the Pivot (they put 4 screws directly under the heel instead of 2, eliminating the two back screws on the regular SPX) and it has more BSL range than Pivot. You'll need to grab a wider SPX brake for non-race skis. You can find new ones for $180-200 if you look a bit.

But yeah, for everyday skis, hard to beat Attacks.

PX15


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[Dee Hubbs]

PX15

= boat anchor

[slowroastin]

= boat anchor

They are heavy, but so are P18’s.


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