P18 Pivot FKS forward pressure - ignore the indicator?

[Core Shot]

Saw this buried in another thread.

I sell a lot of Pivots mail order in the UK & these are the forward pressure instructions I send with each pair:

The extending arms have 3 knurled bands on them. The two outer bands are the upper and lower limits. The centre one is theoretically the ideal providing the binding has been mounted to your boot sole length.

Extending the arms eases off the forward pressure and shortening the arms increases it. The dildo needs to be raised (ie the boot should be in the binding) to access the no.3 pozi driver heads in the ends of the arms.

A maximum of 8mm adjustment can be made between the two outer bands so when mounting set the template length to your exact boot sole length.

The target should be to have the sloping forward pressure indicator at the rear of the base plate in line with the notches however this is often inaccurate - in fact it’s often possible to make a large adjustment in the forward pressure & the sloping indicator doesn’t even move. This is a ‘feature’ of the design!

The best method/test is to set the forward pressure so that when the heel piece lever is slowly raised to half-way with the boot installed it then it ‘snaps’ up.

As a further check, & with the boot in the binding, grab the dildo part and rotate/pivot it. Basically you want to tighten it (the forward pressure) up until you no longer get significant rotation/play when doing this.

Haha yeah don't go by the tabs. Might as well adjust them by star position in the night sky, as those things could have you cranking all day and never move.

I always set them up so that when you're clicking the heel in, the dildo gets halfway up before it snaps the rest of the way up and locks the heel in. It's a kind of inexact science, but hell, you're using a retention heel so that's pretty much the name of the game anyways. Of course, check your AFD pressure like you normally would and you should be just fine.

If this is too much or the uncertainty bothers you, bring it to a shop so they can do the exact same thing I just described.

[TCNROMPER]

Pretty accurate...what's your question?

[skinipenem]

Shop tech that i actually trust, unusual i know, said the ridges and retention tab method is reliable as long as you rotate the heel in between adjustments to reset the system.

[auvgeek]

I learned from those guys, too, but I also wanted to say that it's important not to set the forward pressure too low on FKS. I've had more reliable retention with the forward pressure set slightly higher than I originally expected. IME, if you're unsure, err on the side of a little tighter instead of a little looser, especially if you ski in such a manner that a prerelease could be dangerous (I tore two ligaments in my wrist because of it). You can tell by the angle of the dildo when it's clamped onto the boot, as well as how easily the pivot rotates with the boot in the binding as spyderjon mentioned. Boot heel brushing the heel cup when stepping in is usually a good indication. Obviously, don't set it too high—for example, ensure the toe piece doesn't rotate when you click in, and ensure that you can rotate the heel dildo at least a little with the boot clicked in.

YMMV. I am not a shop tech.

EDIT: I removed the angle stuff. Apparently my eyeballing was totally wrong. Please just make sure you set the forward pressure high enough.

[skinipenem]

Funny thing... i adjusted then by feel and then looked at the indicators. Pretty darn close.

[gwat]

You can tell by the angle of the dildo when it's clamped onto the boot, I prefer the angle to be around 60 deg instead of 75-80 deg (ballpark).
YMMV. I am not a shop tech.

You're joking, right? You have just wasted 15 degrees of elasticity and you're that much closer to a prerelease. Good luck wit that.

As for the dildo-half-up-then-snaps-in technique, older bindings can get a bit of stiction in the heel and there is no way you would get consistent results.

My advice for newbs:
-adjust till you're in the zone
-put your ski on the floor with boot clicked in
-stand on your ski, to prevent it from going anywhere
-pull up on your boot and watch for heel lift - most obvious indicator is watching your brake arms for movement
-if brake arms move, snug up the heels just till the brakes stay put when you're pulling up on the boot
-if the brakes don't move, back off the heels till you see the brakes move when pulling up on the boot, then snug them up a turn

For me this is the easiest, most consistent, most black-and-white technique.

[auvgeek]

You're joking, right? You have just wasted 15 degrees of elasticity and you're that much closer to a prerelease. Good luck wit that.

I believe I pre-released at the toe because there wasn't sufficient forward pressure. It's the only way I can explain how at 160#, I could prerelease with a DIN of 12 just skiing fast over choppy terrain. (And yes, my boot soles were snow free.) Maybe my degree numbers are wrong—I'm just cautioning against people not having sufficient forward pressure. Since turning the DIN up from 12 to 13 and increasing the forward pressure, I haven't prereleased and I have released reliably on a few occasions. Again, YMMV.

But I'll try your technique and see how much higher I have the fwd pressure set, just for kicks.

[Climber Joe]

I believe I pre-released at the toe because there wasn't sufficient forward pressure. It's the only way I can explain how at 160#, I could prerelease with a DIN of 12 just skiing fast over choppy terrain. (And yes, my boot soles were snow free.) Maybe my degree numbers are wrong—I'm just cautioning against people not having sufficient forward pressure. Since turning the DIN up from 12 to 13 and increasing the forward pressure, I haven't prereleased and I have released reliably on a few occasions. Again, YMMV.

But I'll try your technique and see how much higher I have the fwd pressure set, just for kicks.

He is saying that if your dildo is at 60 degrees, the forward pressure is too low, I agree with him. A dildo dangle angle of 80 degrees or so would mean greater forward pressure, and more potential elastic travel. Also, are you in a size 22 boot? That is a really high din for someone your size.

[auvgeek]

He is saying that if your dildo is at 60 degrees, the forward pressure is too low, I agree with him. A dildo dangle angle of 80 degrees or so would mean greater forward pressure, and more potential elastic travel. Also, are you in a size 22 boot? That is a really high din for someone your size.

No, size 26. I just kept turning up my DIN until I stopped pre-releasing. I may not be a "shining beacon of grace and agility," (to quote suprechicken) but I'm no bull in a china cabinet, either.

And I'm pretty sure the higher the forward pressure, the lower the dildo angle (from its natural state when snapped up without a boot in it, which I recall is around 80 degrees). I could be going crazy though; it wouldn't be the first time.

Look I'm not trying to start anything here or brag about how 'core I am because my DIN is high; I was just trying to say one should be careful the forward pressure is set high enough.

[Climber Joe]

No, size 26. I just kept turning up my DIN until I stopped pre-releasing. I may not be a "shining beacon of grace and agility," (to quote suprechicken) but I'm no bull in a china cabinet, either.

And I'm pretty sure the higher the forward pressure, the lower the dildo angle (from its natural state when snapped up without a boot in it, which I recall is around 80 degrees). I could be going crazy though; it wouldn't be the first time.

Look I'm not trying to start anything here or brag about how 'core I am because my DIN is high; I was just trying to say one should be careful the forward pressure is set high enough.

With no boot in it, the dildo can be pulled from about a 40 degree angle to well past vertical because the adjustment wings rotate. With a boot in the system, the boot lip hits the bottom/back of the heel contact and with more forward pressure, that bottom contact is pushed farther back, thus raising the dildo higher off the ski and closer to the boot. Higher dildo angle means higher forward pressure.

Also, DIN is all preference. But you should rememeber one simple fact. The DIN is the force it takes to remove ligaments from your knee, not the binding from the boot.

And one last thing. Have you ever skied the PX12/14/15/18 bindings? In my personal opinion they have much better heel retention than an FKS at the same din and correct FP settings. And far better than any other binding. (again just my opinion). They are also way cheaper.

[gwat]

^if forward pressure is excessively high the dildo will not be able to fully snap up, hence his 60 degree angle.
auv, it seems crazy to take a binding (which is well known for its smooth, reliable release) and purposefully set it up out of spec. Aren't you a mechanical engineer or something?
not sure why you were preleasing. Maybe, you're more of a bull than you think.
Try the heel lift technique and let us know how it goes.

[Climber Joe]

^if forward pressure is excessively high the dildo will not be able to fully snap up, hence his 60 degree angle.
auv, it seems crazy to take a binding (which is well known for its smooth, reliable release) and purposefully set it up out of spec. Aren't you a mechanical engineer or something?
not sure why you were preleasing. Maybe, you're more of a bull than you think.
Try the heel lift technique and let us know how it goes.

I don't think too much forward pressure should drop the angle, though I usually mount at 295mm for my 298mm boot so "too much" forward pressure lands me right in the middle of the adjustment legs, which retains correct angles. I imagine if the adjustment legs were all the way open or all the way closed it would cause issues depending on the boot, regardless of correct or incorrect pressure.

Another question for Auv. What year are your pivots? And how much use have they had? Forward pressure springs age like anything else. Maybe its time for new heel spring/base plates?

Anyway, this is just another example of why I am slowly collecting PX14s. They have no fiddle factor.

[Muggydude]

I set mine by tightening fp until levering the heel up and down slightly does not cause the boot to rise and fall (brake doesnt move as mentioned by gwat) and that gets me just about right. Maybe 1/4 turn tighter than that. Never had prerelease at 10 din.

I find the indicator tab is hardly ever accurate

[gwat]

I don't think too much forward pressure should drop the angle

Try it. We're talking exxtreem amounts of excessive forward pressure here.

Forward pressure springs age like anything else.

That spring just pushes the white tab and heel back to neutral, it really does nothing functional.
You could take that spring right out with no ill effects.

[auvgeek]

Try it. We're talking exxtreem amounts of excessive forward pressure here.

I'm actually not talking that extreme. Seriously. But I'll do your test and see how it comes out. Again, wasn't trying to start a big thing here: just saying it's better to err towards slightly higher forward pressure than slightly lower, IN MY EXPERIENCE. And not like massively higher; just a little.

My pivots are all reasonably new, i.e., within the last five years, and probably have no more than 200 days on any given pair.

But I honestly didn't mean for this thread to become about why I pre-released once a few years ago or why I need to set my DIN so high or anything else revolving around me. I simply mentioned that I pre-released, and my thoughts that it was caused, at least in part, by too little forward pressure.

[roQer]

How about visiting a shop and get your bindings set up in a machine if you are concerning with correct FP?
Might be the better alternative for your bones and ligaments. Or doesn't this work with a Pivot/FKS?

[The Tortoise]

Just make sure the shop is familiar with them.

Mine were mounted according to the tab, like a lot of people I thought that was the correct way.

After reading this thread I looked at my brakes while flexing my boot and sure as shit, they moved significantly. And looking back, there were two heel releases that were suspect.

225 lbs. Ski them at 8. 27.5 boots. Never had a toe pre-release.

[ill-advised strategy]

I like the method of getting close, then feeling for slack. Either snug it up until there's no slack, or loosen it until there's slack and tighten to the no-slack point. Never had a problem with this method.

[Dee Hubbs]

I've skied nothing but P18s since 2002. I teched in the shop for a while too. The set up is really a feel thing, and hard to accurately describe. There are a lot of good points in this thread.
I can usually tell by the spot the boot heel hits the binding, and the feel of how the dildo snaps up.
I personally tighten the forward pressure until the dildo no longer has any side to side movement when tugged on, and then I test the dildo to see how it snaps back up after partially pushing down on it, I usually have to loosen the forward pressure a bit to get a quick return back to its resting place after the initial side to side test.
YMMV.

[XXX-er]

I am not a user but I have always been curious about the adjustment, I had an old look 37 turntable binding for a few years and the guy told me when you push the toe slightly to the side if it does not return to center the forward pressure is too high so back it off till the boot returns to center ??

[Muggydude]

I can usually tell by the spot the boot heel hits the binding, and the feel of how the dildo snaps up.

Also something I've found^ on my pairs with various boots, it seems the correct forward pressure is at the point where the heel of the boot just brushes the cup of the heel piece and pushes it back ~2mm before you step down to click in all the way

[auvgeek]

it seems the correct forward pressure is at the point where the heel of the boot just brushes the cup of the heel piece and pushes it back ~2mm before you step down to click in all the way

Agreed.

[mr_pretzel]

How far back can they be adjusted? There are 3 rings, do you need to be inside the outer rings? Or can you be "on" them

[Dee Hubbs]

You can get away with "on". Once you have smooth showing above the 3rd ring you've gone too far.

[Groomer Gambler]

Different question - Got an old pair of FKS 155s. in one binder, the DIN line seems to be stuck at 11 in the heel piece. However, when I adjust them I can feel the screw/spring loosen and tighten. Skis seem to click in fine, hold on fine, and release alright. Is this an issue and should I be concerned?