Relative Safety of Cat vs. Heli?

[redeyeballs]

I looked for any comparative data on this and not surprisingly came up with nothing. In the CPG/Alaska thread several posters opined that the risks of heli are understated and "near misses" are significantly undereported. All backcountry skiing is inherently risky, but risk/reward profiles vary, and I think it is a legitimate question that likely has a very nuanced answer. Some obvious differentiating factors 1) Heli has a significant multiplier due to vertical feet and time on snow. 2) Many Cat skiing outfits (at least the ones I have done) feature more glade skiing and less above tree line vertical. 3) Cat skiing slopes tend to be gentler by virtue of they need to be Cat accessible. 4) Many heli skiers are all about the vertical and that may in turn pressure poor decision making. These are just some factors based on my own experience. I am sure there are many others.
I am curious what those with first hand knowledge think.
To be clear, the recent Alaska fatalities are a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to the young families of those lost and the surviving guides of CPG. It could have just as easily have been me and my adult children, and risk profiles significantly change when it is your family, and not just you.
I do think that more transparency on the real risks of backcountry skiing are neceessary given its explosion in popularity.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

More transparency on the real risks of backcountry skiing is necessary? Jfc, you’re skiing in avalanche terrain with no mitigation of hazard except for possibly ski cuts. That’s about as transparent as it gets. If someone can’t understand that they should probably just ride a chairlift.

[Perlhammered]

I think your average heli/cat skier probably doesn't fully understand the risks of skiing avalanche terrain. They likely assume that because there are professional guides, the danger has been mitigated. If you look at most websites for cat/heli operations, they really emphasize how safe they are, or don't mention safety at all (looking at you Stellar Heli). I don't know that more transparency is necessarily the answer, but I do think that most folks getting on a heli/cat really don't understand those risks and don't really think about it until the safety briefing when they arrive on site.
As to the original question about relative safety of cat vs heli, I think there's something there, given the comparative ability of the two vehicle types to reach more or less dangerous terrain. Not to say that cats can't get you into avalanche terrain, because they absolutely can and do.

[jackstraw]

More transparency on the real risks of backcountry skiing is necessary? Jfc, you’re skiing in avalanche terrain with no mitigation of hazard except for possibly ski cuts. That’s about as transparent as it gets. If someone can’t understand that they should probably just ride a chairlift.

Some drop explosives.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Some do but it’s the exception not the rule?

[jackstraw]

Idk, I just know of a couple cat ops that do. I'm guessing the land leases and environmental regulations factor into this maybe.

[nickwm21]

Avalanche risk aside two side notes:

- One can assume riding in a helicopter is significantly more dangerous than riding in a snowcat. (It is comparatively to cars, I don’t think there’s data on snowcat driving fatality rate…). Add in mountain terrain and weather….

- Hitting a tree seems to be the most common major injury / fatality in snow sports.


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[goldenboy]

Helis are super sketchy. Ask me what it's like to have a heli crash, good times.
I think most cat ops have significantly smaller tenures and are more likely than heli ops to use explosives. The one closest to me even has an early season bootpacking program just like the ski area to stomp out those pesky facets.

[Mofro261]

Im not a regular user of helis these days, but I do have 20+ days flying across multiple trips and outfits CMC/RC heli/Whistler mid 90s-mid-2000s. I never once had a trip where we didnt do transeiver practice prior to loading to start a trip.
I had many days drooling at the terrain and lines I wanted to ski adjacent to the our guided routes but instead the group would take the most avalanche averse aspects.
The best and steepest aspects I got were either in corn snow or in open forested terrain and (oddly) on days I snow boarded instead of skied.
The heli flight probably has more risk than the skiing most of the time, but shit does happen both cat and heli skiing. Snow emersion in treed terrain is as much an issue.

[tang]

Sorta related... After three or four heli trips, I have kinda sworn of heli skiing in favor of cats and really mostly human powered backcountry. Less about the avy risk, although I agree that cats are generally avy safer. But mostly cost, weather and or conditions risk, carbon impact, and also just vibe as heli can be a yo yo of frantic moments and then waiting forty five mins for the next bump. Timing was so tight on one heli op that the client behind the guide seat had to have the seat belt held open for the guide to quickly slip into the seat and buckle up. Cats allow you to absorb the terrain vs being plopped on top of a mtn, although nothing like skinning and booting for 2-3+ hours.
I also agree that the average heli or cat client underappreciates the general avy risk, and the morning mini avy tutorial is mostly for legal and insurance purposes. I am guessing most guides highly discount the ability of their clients rescuing them!
On my one AK trip, we were one guide and four client skiers. Runs were generally two to four thousand feet, usually broken into two. Guide skied first. One at a time. Radio in your ear. If something slid, heli is going to scoop up the guide, but that takes time. Clients are the frontline of the rescue. There was no tail guide. And I will say the avy training tutorial was much more serious.
Helis are fun, but super fragile. Golden, I can't imagine a crash. Terrifying.

[GoldMember]

Ive had a bunch of heli days and even more cat days, probably over seventy five in total. At first, I was all about heli skiing but as time went on, I became more comfortable with cat skiing for a number of reasons. First, with helicopters, there are a lot more moving parts to the whole LZ complex and onloading-offloading. Everyone is in a hurry and the whole thing is just rushed with a large machine that could hurt you if you fuck up somehow. Guys do stupid things that put a huge burden on the guides to keep everyone safe while dealing with a helicopter coming into an LZ. Ive seen some stupid shit, especially if youre in a Bell with a large group. Then, the offloading can be a bit stressful for the same reasons. Lastly, if its cold, there isnt much time in the heli to warm a bit, hard to talk, and things are always a bit crazy. With cats, things are just more relaxed between runs and you have time to talk among yourselves and with the guides, snack on something, and have some warmth. That said, as for the skiing risk, I dont see much difference. If youre above treeline with a heli, it could be more subject to large slides without tree anchors. However, weve been above treeline with cats so that risk is still there and snow does slide in trees, too so the risk for avalanche exists there as well. All that said, its a lot of fun either way and deep powder is still an overwhelming allure.

[garyfromterrace]

I'm with tang in that I'm sort of off the heli train. Having said that, I probably would not say no to a free day and most of my dozen or so heli days were either deeply discounted ($100 day at Weigle), free ("tail guiding" at NEH and LFH Bell 2) or part of a heli-assisted week (Bella Coola, LFH Ripley Cr). The crazy heli-ski pace of go, go, go, - more vert!!! sucks in my estimation and certainly the carbon footprint is ridiculous. For the most part other passengers in the heli seemed pretty clueless about avi hazard in general. My cat experiences (2 - 3 day trips) were a much chiller vibe and the terrain was less full on alpine and more sub alpine and treed. One of the trips was basically meadow skipping (Wild Horse) while skiing Clyde's Mt Mckenzie operation in Revie was more aggressive terrain (potentially because we were a group of decent skiers who could all keep up to the guide). OP I think you answered your own question regarding safety of cat vs. heli. I feel the two biggest differences in risk is the huge alpine lines skied using heli (and a larger range of hazards going from high alpine to well below tree line), and just the additional vertical skied (and related exposure) with the heli (40K days vs. 20K days with the cat).These days, I just love the walk up (and ski down) with the dog. I'm in no rush and feel no need for 40,000 vert skiing in a day.

[jackstraw]

I've never heli skied, but obviously would like to and probably will. Although, I most likely will prefer the cat especially reading what you guys have said. My three cat trips have been filled with friends and friends of friends, so we've had good days because everyone is capable.

One cat in Utah was exceptional as my friend was best friends with lead guide also. He was laughing calling it the best cat of the year because he's never been the worst skier in the cat...which was funny, but not true.

[summit]

Interesting thing about helos: they convert Jet-A directly into fun. I love the fuck out of helos, for fun or work. They exhilarate me.

Interesting thing about helos: they are 1 million pieces trying to fly apart held together by one cotter pin. Helos scare the ever living shit out of me. I've been on a crash rescue. I've had colleagues die and be maimed. Made my dad deaf in one ear.

I'm only in helos a few times a year. I have many HEMS and guide friends who work in helos multiple days a week. They have the coolest job in the world but I also stare when they take off and land with a touch of anxiety.

My nightmare is mostly about post crash fire, because of what happened to people I know. But my other nightmare is rolling down the mountain over and over beating the shit out of you and then you hang upside down broken and die of shock/hypothermia. Two recent heli ski crashes-and-roll-down-the-mountain I can think of off the top of my head. Petit Combin crash and roll killed 3 and injured 3 last year. The 2021 Knik Glacier (in Chugach) where 5 died and one guy was greviously injured hanging upside down in the mangled aircraft. Also, yesterday 3 died in a MS HEMS crash RIP.

I didn't even talk about avalanches.

[summit]

I will add some things about those crash-and-rolls. The Petit Combin crash, the helicopter got caught by an avalanche it triggered by sliding down the slope.

The Knik glacier crash occurred while I was on a heli trip in AK and the guide who was killed was known by our lead guide.

On my trip we had avalanches triggered by our group, one person was caught partial burial and uninjured. Then another skier triggered another slide and skied out. Then the lead guide decided to pull the plug but the group was split. I was up high with the tail guide, and aspirant guide, and another client. The tail guide asked the heli to land for us on a PZ we would need to build below part of the slope that had not yet slid. Again with my roll-down-the-mountain nightmares. I immediately said: safety stop! we should skin up and build a PZ that was not exposed to a slope that already slid twice and will likely react to our PZ build and even more likely, a helo.

Tail guide reconsidreed and agreed.

They were not being dumb, just autopilot: heli guides rarely naturally consider plans involving putting on skins I learned because clients do not carry skins... I did as did those still on the upper slope. Lesson always speak up for safety. Oh but the snow was good!

[GoldMember]

^^ Yeah, the snow probably was good while it was still on the mountain. After it went down, probably not so much.

[jackstraw]

Interesting Summit. Heli ski with AT and skins. Brilliant actually. Guides are all in that gear obviously, but it would certainly behoove the entire group to do so also, cat or heli.

[GoldMember]

jackstraw - The main problem with having everyone in AT gear with skins is that most who cat/heli dont have the gear and have absolutely no experience in AT. Many are east coasters (another separate problem, no real avalanche knowledge or feel for terrain) and have never considered AT as a plan. Good idea but not really practical.

[jackstraw]

Yeah, no doubt. Again, I've never experienced a cat trip with randoms. So personally with my group it would be beneficial.

What's the typical heli group number? What number would it take to take over the whole thing so you're not stuck with some clueless kooks?

[zion zig zag]

I can’t imagine going to heli or cat ski and using AT gear. I want max enjoyment from each turn.


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[GoldMember]

Yeah, no doubt. Again, I've never experienced a cat trip with randoms. So personally with my group it would be beneficial.What's the typical heli group number? What number would it take to take over the whole thing so you're not stuck with some clueless kooks?

Depending on the op, if its a Bell, then twelve skiers. If A Star, then four. Weve also only skied with our group so Ive not had the randos but even in our group, pretty limited AT experience. And were all from N Idaho so that should be an indicator. While not skiing with others, we met them at the lodges and a lot are from the east. Also a lot of Euros who would be more acquainted with conditions but still pretty limited.

[jackstraw]

Ah, I could bolt my boots to 2x4s and have an epic time skiing pow. Plus today's AT shit is bomber depending on the setup. IME you're not filming for trg, it's just pow laps in relatively steep terrain with nice little pillow drops thrown on. I'd have zero issues on AT binders and my Cochise

[skaredshtles]

today's AT shit is bomber

Perhaps true if you are comparing to AT shit from 20 years ago. But not if you are comparing to modern alpine shit.

canofworms.gif

[jackstraw]

The thing is your not resort skiing on these trips. And whereas Summit already provided a great reason for having an AT set up, it makes sense. Or be dead? And having "little" experience doesn't mean shit in that scenario. Skin up and walk to a safer spot for a heli pick up. Or a different scenario would be if you are below a slide victim being able to skin up and help with digging does not take AT BC experience...well maybe a little to get there safely, but most likely the lead guide is at the bottom also for directions.

And actually my kid was on Dukes this last cat trip and he was sending it like a 20 something with zero issues... because again...it's POW! [emoji16]

[GoldMember]

Ah, I could bolt my boots to 2x4s and have an epic time skiing pow. Plus today's AT shit is bomber depending on the setup. IME you're not filming for trg, it's just pow laps in relatively steep terrain with nice little pillow drops thrown on. I'd have zero issues on AT binders and my Cochise.

When I first started heli, I skied some Salomon Screams that were like 80 underfoot and also some Rossi B3 which, I think, were 83. And actually, we were filming, just not for TGR. Its been a few years ago...And yes, it was epic!