Relative Safety of Cat vs. Heli?

[summit]

I have a pathological need to have uphill travel ability if in the BC. Zero G Pro Tours with enhanced burly liners on Tecton/Lotus 138s I don't feel like I'm missing out of performance.

Alpine bindings and boots? Bring skins you can slap on from a similarly sized ski! You can shuffle up that hill on skins 25X faster in alpine boots/bindings than you can sidestep/post hole in steep heli pow.

[XXX-er]

From the POV of never heli skied but I have flown for work and to acess the BC in BC so IMO hell of a copters are just more dangerous period cuz there is a chance of pilot error or a mechanical and that is even before we thro in the skiing. IME the pilots have all been different the first guy I flew with went over every detail of the flight carefully the second guy didnt shut down or talk to the group or anything we just jump in the bird. The best local Pilot I flew with had been pilot of the year he was the base commander, buddy did everthing slow and methodical, no accidents no surprises, I was on the hook for some of his line work and he would take off and land with loads he couldn't hover even after burning off fuel he was a master on th stick






From the couple of Cat ski trips I been on cat guy is driving on the same roads all season the guide is guiding all the same runs on a much small area much of it below tree line so I feel a lot safer in a Cat than a Helo both in terms of transportation but also the ability of the guide to have better aviy awareness,




my the first Cat trip was poor snow condition not a strong group or randoms, the second trip we had 12 strong buds so we had the whole cat and may have had a bit of a party the guide said OK when I open this door I don't wana see beer cans falling out on the piste

[Bunion 2020]

Was involved in 1 ski related heli crash (1 fatality 4 bad injuries, no fire thank Dog) and worked for a woman in ID with USFS whose husband was killed at Ruby Mountain when his ship crashed (Pilot). I have heli-skied (PowderBirds and Canada) and it was great but as said stressful and had the good luck to fly in a bunch of different birds both in the Frank Church (Heli-tac) and while doing lift construction. They are great machines until they are not. Neighbor is/was a shit hot pilot, one of the best I ever worked with, he has crashed several times and his son was killed a couple of summer's ago up near Glacier doing Wildland fire. RIP Tom. I have had my fun and honestly don't know how I would answer if offered a day.

[XXX-er]

i know a guide who lost his arm, he doesnt guide anymore

[jackstraw]

When I first started heli, I skied some Salomon Screams that were like 80 underfoot and also some Rossi B3 which, I think, were 83. And actually, we were filming, just not for TGR. Its been a few years ago...And yes, it was epic!

Ha! Based on your numbers I figured you were filming. Good for you!

I mean shit, a lot of us old phucks have skied balz deep on all that stuff before anyone really paid attention to width underfoot. It was...is that a GS or a S and wood or foam core? Then Sollie with their MonoCock and Rossi with the 4M mogul ski. Bring it back! Then pow would last a bit longer at the hill [emoji16]

[coldfeet]

I've never heli-skied or even been in a helicopter. But long ago I was a boy scout and a flight for life heli landed at our camp as a training run, and they let us watch - from a safe distance, but like safe for 1979, probably not safe for 2025. The downdraft was bending trees over, modest-size trees, not saplings. I remember thinking "jeezus, imagine being a Vietnamese peasant and seeing one of these MFers for the first time." (It was the late 70s and that was still on people's minds, even kids.) I came away with a lifelong respect/fear of the helicopter.

[GoldMember]

We used to ski a storm for two days with untracked available if you knew where to look. Now it's pretty much over in two runs so, yeah, bring back my 207's and let everyone else figure out how to ski them!

[muted reborn]

There have been two times I've been working around helis and heard guide chatter about weather preventing us from flying out and we all would have had to sleep in the bc overnight. One time I was alone and 800 vert below the heli and everyone else. Woulda involved some serious bootpacking up some steeps to go camping with everyone around the heli.

I also once came close to running my snowmobile into a heli full of MSP skiers, I gave it the beans going up a small hill it was perched on and landed right near it. Hit the brakes right away and saved some people getting rescued tho. I gotta lot of terrified looks from that.

[oltrepiave]

As an European some of the more convoluted aspects about the whole operations side interest me.

So I guess that all of these private outlets (MW, CPG) operate on both private and public lands. Maybe cat operations do own the land outright. That means that all available info on snowpack (eg avy bulletins and other media content) comes from within the operation itself? I guess it's just spoken word feedback among guides/clients etc. I do acknowledge that everything is just vast out there. Having said that I guess all close calls/minor slides are not recorded in a standardised way due to the reasons that have already been discussed.

So this boils down to guides evaluating terrain either at the lodge (based on others' info) or just on top of lines once they're dropped? Do they have time to roam/look at terrain thoroughly/dig pits or is it mostly ski cuts? Or maybe also explosives?

Is there an "AT (or hybrid) GEAR AT ALL TIMES" policy among guests? Because given the (low) experience of guests if I was a guide and I got buried I would at least want my partners to be able to traverse/simply travel on top of debris if I was buried above/far from them.

[jackstraw]

Guide services have their own protocol on avi mitigation as far as I know. They do not share it with the public that I'm aware of. My last guide is also a TranBC avi employee and due to their strict procedures and protocols they do not use outside input. She is on skis every working day evaluating the snowpack.

[zion zig zag]

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There have been two times I&#39;ve been working around helis and heard guide chatter about weather preventing us from flying out and we all would have had to sleep in the bc overnight. One time I was alone and 800 vert below the heli and everyone else. Woulda involved some serious bootpacking up some steeps to go camping with everyone around the heli. I also once came close to running my snowmobile into a heli full of MSP skiers, I gave it the beans going up a small hill it was perched on and landed right near it. Hit the brakes right away and saved some people getting rescued tho. I gotta lot of terrified looks from that.

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Well shit, now in addition to skiing big Alaskan faces on touring gear I have to carry a tent and sleeping bag.</p>

[XXX-er]

As an European some of the more convoluted aspects about the whole operations side interest me. So I guess that all of these private outlets (MW, CPG) operate on both private and public lands. Maybe cat operations do own the land outright. That means that all available info on snowpack (eg avy bulletins and other media content) comes from within the operation itself?






at least here in a Cat or Heli Op get a tenure on crown land where they are allowed to operate, the areas are so Vast that its kind of inconsquesntial, my member of parliment represents an area the size of Poland





As I understand it the largest heli op in BC is 5 times the size of any other op in the BC in BC and i seem to remember being told Skeena Cat got the bottom end of Skeens Heli tenure cuz it was so far away the heli burnt up too much fuel to try and use it





As for guides there may not be any in the past TO give much snow condition input so the guides that were here had to be real snow geeks

[BCMtnHound]

Was involved in 1 ski related heli crash (1 fatality 4 bad injuries, no fire thank Dog) and worked for a woman in ID with USFS whose husband was killed at Ruby Mountain when his ship crashed (Pilot). I have heli-skied (PowderBirds and Canada) and it was great but as said stressful and had the good luck to fly in a bunch of different birds both in the Frank Church (Heli-tac) and while doing lift construction. They are great machines until they are not. Neighbor is/was a shit hot pilot, one of the best I ever worked with, he has crashed several times and his son was killed a couple of summer's ago up near Glacier doing Wildland fire. RIP Tom. I have had my fun and honestly don't know how I would answer if offered a day.

Much the same thoughts here. 30+ yrs of heli use with wildland firefighting, technical resource work, SAR, and even lucked out with heli skiing a couple times. All but one pilot were very professional, and their company maintenance records top notch. Known the local pilot for 17yrs now and have no question on his abilities. But there are so many variables at play, and when the shit hits the fan, the margins are very tight. I don’t step forward to fly anymore, will go but let others take first ops if possible.

Never been cat skiing - that’s what my sled is for.

[mcski]

My godfather’s son is a colonel now and has flown apaches for his entire career. He said he will fly when he retires but not in anymore helicopters - since they don’t actually fly

[XXX-er]

And on the subject of hell of a copters flying has anyone experienced an unplanned Auto rotation ?

[GoldMember]

My experience with guides at Selkirk Tangiers and Snowwater was that they performed avi evaluations early in particular zones, digging pits and reported findings to Avalanche Canada which contributed to the Avi forecasts. They were all very professional and well trained. I think the same was true with the cat ops we were with

[muted reborn]

Well shit, now in addition to skiing big Alaskan faces on touring gear I have to carry a tent and sleeping bag.

That would be the smart thing to do. Many experienced heads take heli-skiing laps with packs like this:

[jackstraw]

My godfather’s son is a colonel now and has flown apaches for his entire career. He said he will fly when he retires but not in anymore helicopters - since they don’t actually fly

One of my best friends ended up a Captain in the Navy. He initially was sent to heli school an flew those for years before they finally switched him to jets. He never liked flying "floating rocks", but said there was some glide available and it's difficult. I think all the stars have to align and even then...

[Meadow Skipper]

My godfather’s son is a colonel now and has flown apaches for his entire career. He said he will fly when he retires but not in anymore helicopters - since they don’t actually fly

A helicopter pilot once explained to me that helicopters don’t actually fly, it’s just that they make so much noise and stink that the earth backs away from them in horror.

One time I was flying wildfire air tanker coordination with a fixed wing pilot and made him laugh really hard when I told him the problem with helicopters is if you spend enough time in them you start believing they can actually fly.

[BCMtnHound]

As long as the rotors can move, and you have enough elevation, you have some options. But when the transmission seizes, the ‘floating rock’ description is an apt one.

And if you are lucky to survive a crash, the greatest risk is getting burnt by fuel. All those lovely synthetic layers we enjoy, melt real nice to our skin. Good practice to make sure at least your base layer is natural fibre.

[XXX-er]

yeah more or less the rotor going around up and forward motion there creates something like a wing that generates lift you can google auto rotation helicopter, so I read they do practise Auto rotation in airforce flight school but if a bunch other shit is going wrong it might not go well





The pilot I ran the hook for was so good he could take off AND land loads that were too heavy to hover which was impressive becuz he would have burned fuel after picking up the load and was still too heavy to hover at the load set down after burning off fuel on the way up so it was the forward movement of the bird that generated the lift to let him fly loads he couldn&#39;t hover

[safetymeeting]

&quot;I do think that more transparency on the real risks of backcountry skiing are neceessary given its explosion in popularity.&quot;

. The general consensus among recreational users and what is taught in avie classes is that if you make all the best decisions and have enough snow/locale data and pay close enough attention then you will be safe. This doesn&#39;t seem to be true at all. I think if someone is looking for transparency they won&#39;t get it. It&#39;s a dangerous activity and there will always be factors we can&#39;tcontrol that can kill us.

[californiagrown]

I think that people on here overestimate the skill level and experience level of folks that go on cat/heli trips. The majority of folks that i know who have gone heli/cat skiing in the last 10 years are wealthier, 40yr old resort skiers with 0 unguided backcountry days under their belt. They know of avalanches, but dont know avalanches, and they seem to have an attitude that treats the trip as somewhat similarly controlled as "back bowls" at a bigtime ski resort. YMMV. And on these trips the guests are frothing to ski terrain at the upper end of their ability levels, 10 times per day, through changing weather/temp conditions, while usually experiencing a luxury resort level of handholding through the whole experience... as opposed to most BC skiers getting in a couple/few laps per day rarely at the upper end of their ability level, usually timing things for advantageous weather/temps. So you get higher odds of an avalanche incident, combined with higher odds of it involving folks with minimal appreciation for the risks involved. Its almost a "crying wolf" situation where lift tickets say you can die skiing, gates to double diamond inbounds terrain say you can die skiing, ski movies show pros ripping out pockets and straightlining to safety, and then you have cat/heli ops saying you can die too. It kindof waters down the expectation for risk level IMO.

[skaredshtles]

I saw an ad for Mike Weigle heli skiinng recently in a news feed, and if someone took me on the shit terrain they were showing off, I&#39;d probably start griping about it.

[rod9301]

The biggest avie risk is where you'll be skiing. Continental climate, like Canada, risky or you ski low angle.

Maritime, like coastal Alaska, safer.
But you have to understand that heli skiing operations, even if they know there's a weak buried layer, they still have to fly. Wich i think it's the biggest risk.

When i go bc skiing, i know the snow pack intimately and if there's a buried weak layer,i don't go.

If on the other hand, you hired a guide for a weekend, 4 weeks ahead, you and the guide will go, because you planned it.
Much higher risk.

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