Social Security?

[Platinum Pete]

Can you back any of this up? It will fail if we let it, like we're doing.

I'll bite. Without reading any of your links- what should we be doing to get funded in full at age 55, with every nickel's worth we put in, adjusted for cost of living? Anything less is a scam, right?

[Benny Profane]

Baby boomers retiring at 65, most will live and kill the system with newfangled drug and medical costs for an additional 15-20 years. Our nation's infrastructure is crumbling (the original interstate system that was built in the 50-60's had a 50-75 year design life). This will cost hundreds of billions to repair. Cities are decaying, urban planning is failing, people are multiplying. We are outsourcing our lowest paying jobs (essentially cutting out the feeders into the system, they work long and die early). The current system will not be able to handle this influx of people while the budget is diverted to maintaining the nation. The system may still exist, but I foresee minimum retirement age to be at least 70-72 by the time I get there.

What it comes down to is planning that the system will be gone, and perhaps we will be plesentally suprised if it still exists. Call it a half-empty view.

jezuz, man, you should just start shooting smack with an attitude like that. How depressing.
The cities that have a purpose are OK. I lived in NYC when Ford said Drop Dead and the Bronx was burning - now Times Square is almost Disney World. But the midwest is gonna have even more hard times with GM and Ford vanishing. The best solution is to stop this immigrant hate thing - they will be the people who will fill the vacuam and save some cities - they saved New York.
The highways? Come on, do you drive around the country at all? Sure, some are bad, but they are constantly being repaired and improved. If I remember, a major bill was signed about 2 years ago for highway repair - that's being spent now. Shit, come on up to upstate NY - even back farm roads are paved on a regular basis.
Stop whining about social security. First of all, It will always be there, because, as Bushie Boy found out, it's politically impossible to radically change it. That was his #1 priority after the last stolen election, and it took some time for him to realize that he was pissing into a heavy wind. And the boomers won't allow it over the next 20-30 years. So save your goddamn money. IRAs and 401ks are your friend. Pay yourself first. SS was only meant to be a supplement, anyway. If you have an overpriced SUV that sucks up overpriced gas and live in a large, overpriced home and watch a $5000 TV and buy the latest ski when you really don't need it, then you have some issues of your own to fix. Don't look to the politicians to help you.

[Buster Highmen]

I'll bite. Without reading any of your links- what should we be doing to get funded in full at age 55, with every nickel's worth we put in, adjusted for cost of living? Anything less is a scam, right?

No. Read the book. You've been snowed.

I can understand wanting to control your own money. That's one issue.

But painting the system as bound to fail or a scam is false. The system will continue to function and provide support.

Educate yourself, then decide.

[cj001f]

The highways? Come on, do you drive around the country at all? Sure, some are bad, but they are constantly being repaired and improved. If I remember, a major bill was signed about 2 years ago for highway repair - that's being spent now. Shit, come on up to upstate NY - even back farm roads are paved on a regular basis.

Yeah - rural america/midwest have great roads because their politicians have lured billions of pork - for declining populations and industrial bases. Meanwhile the growing megapolises are falling apart. Sapp lives in Socal - 20 million people and our roads are selfdestructing. See my argument above why this country is f'ed.

CUBUCK-
I'm not saying fiscal management is difficult - just most people have proven track records of incapacity. (even in countries that have privatized). Social Security was intended only as a baseline to keep elders out of penury - not to be the sole retirement account.

[warthog]

jezuz, man, you should just start shooting smack with an attitude like that. How depressing.
The cities that have a purpose are OK. I lived in NYC when Ford said Drop Dead and the Bronx was burning - now Times Square is almost Disney World. But the midwest is gonna have even more hard times with GM and Ford vanishing. The best solution is to stop this immigrant hate thing - they will be the people who will fill the vacuam and save some cities - they saved New York.
The highways? Come on, do you drive around the country at all? Sure, some are bad, but they are constantly being repaired and improved. If I remember, a major bill was signed about 2 years ago for highway repair - that's being spent now. Shit, come on up to upstate NY - even back farm roads are paved on a regular basis.
Stop whining about social security. First of all, It will always be there, because, as Bushie Boy found out, it's politically impossible to radically change it. That was his #1 priority after the last stolen election, and it took some time for him to realize that he was pissing into a heavy wind. And the boomers won't allow it over the next 20-30 years. So save your goddamn money. IRAs and 401ks are your friend. Pay yourself first. SS was only meant to be a supplement, anyway. If you have an overpriced SUV that sucks up overpriced gas and live in a large, overpriced home and watch a $5000 TV and buy the latest ski when you really don't need it, then you have some issues of your own to fix. Don't look to the politicians to help you.

Ding ding ding.

Took the words outta my mouth. But, you forgot CC debt. Don't buy shit you can't afford. Then, you will be less of a drain later.

[Tuckerman]

Don't look to the politicians to help you.

Thats what I'm saying its my money. I can save it better for myself.

[Benny Profane]

Thats what I'm saying its my money. I can save it better for myself.

If I make it to 80, I'll be happy with what I get on my investment. Probably couldn't do a whole lot better than what I'll get. And I look at it as a nice, conservative, and, yes, safe component of total retirement savings. I mean, imagine if it was in high tech or media like a lot of my other money 5-6 years ago.

[Dantheman]

Well, we could solve the problem almost immediately by getting rid of the 90k cap on the earned income tax. Regressive taxes = retarded.

[Dantheman]

Thats what I'm saying its my money. I can save it better for myself.

Nobody ever said you couldn't, but in general americans are not saving. In fact, we spent more than we earned last year. IMO, some sort of social safety net is an essential and wise investment.

[Tuckerman]

Well, we could solve the problem almost immediately by getting rid of the 90k cap on the earned income tax. Regressive taxes = retarded.

Agreed

Nobody ever said you couldn't, but in general americans are not saving. In fact, we spent more than we earned last year. IMO, some sort of social safety net is an essential and wise investment.

Its only a wise investment if it makes you money or if you don't take a loss.

[PNWbrit]

Thats what I'm saying its my money. I can save it better for myself.

So should I be able to opt out of paying for anything that I think I can do better than the government or because I feel it shouldn't be the role of government to provide?

I don't have kids so can I get back my tax money that goes to schools and don't think religious organizations should get tax breaks so can I get a credit? How about the bullets that I've paid for and are being wasted?

Allowing the safety net of social security to die because no one has bothered to fix it previously or because Wall St/finance industry is salivating at the profits it'll generate for them is ridiculous. We'll generate a profit driven system that like the one we have for health care is only interested in the bottom line and will scew you when given the slightest chance to make a nickel.

[smitchell333]

Possible Solutions?

Here's the core of what I'd propose:

- Basic nature of SS should be safety net - not a retirement plan. It should be used in connection with Medicaid, Foodstamps, welfare, etc as a last resort for those without the means, planning, or other to create their own retirement. Not as the core of most people's retirement plan. Just to pay enough to pay for food and low end housing. It was never intended in the 1930s as a retirement package - only as a rock-bottom safety net.

- Further encourage retirement savings - make more options available and increase the $ amounts/%s available to save for the average american so that they are encouraged to save enough to retire.

- Set a stake in the sand to start in phases decreasing guaranteed benefits for those retiring in the future. The reality is that those who are getting SS today are getting much more out of it than what they put in. (Payments out have increased - cost of living adjustments, etc. and the worker today pays in a larger % of his income).

- Stop funding other government expeditures from any surplus in the short term - re-invest those $s in order to limit the shortfall in the future.

Chances of this happening? 1-5% - AARP is far too powerful a lobby and growing even stronger with the aging populus.

[Cono Este]

The govt is wasting all our hard earned money? Heavens no! That cant be true! Better check your facts.

Maybe we should stop giving it to them? Just a thought.

[Dantheman]

Its only a wise investment if it makes you money or if you don't take a loss.

What you put in does make money, T-bills are as rock solid as it gets (albeit low yield). True, the system is heading toward the red right now, but that's largely the result of poor tax policy and accounting voodoo/statistics manipulation that makes the situation seem worse than it is.

But, even if the system makes no money or operates at a loss, the non-monetary benefits we receive in the form of overall social stability still make it a good idea.

[Cono Este]

Allowing the safety net of social security to die because no one has bothered to fix it previously or because Wall St/finance industry is salivating at the profits it'll generate for them is ridiculous. We'll generate a profit driven system that like the one we have for health care is only interested in the bottom line and will scew you when given the slightest chance to make a nickel.

That i s absolutely correct. The whores on Wall Street will skim trillions out of it, that much you can count on.

As much as I personally know that I could better manage my ss funds, most would not. We'd have old people pulling slots with their medicaid money.

Not sure what the answer is really.

I just hate the whores. Alot.

But the question is: who are the biggest whores?

[Telenater]

It will fail if we let it, like we're doing.

Sounds like the same argument that's being pushed by the Bush Administration about the war in Iraq....

I don't belive that there will be no Social Security for the rest of us that'll be eligible for benefits in 40+ years. I don't believe that it will resemble the current system. At somepoint, the system will either be overhauled, or it will crumble and be replaced with something to provide a pittance for the worst off.

In the meantime, those of us with the means, had better save as if it weren't going to be there for us. Then, if hell freezes over (whoo, more skiing), we certainly can only end up better off.

[DJSapp]

jezuz, man, you should just start shooting smack with an attitude like that. How depressing.
The cities that have a purpose are OK. I lived in NYC when Ford said Drop Dead and the Bronx was burning - now Times Square is almost Disney World. But the midwest is gonna have even more hard times with GM and Ford vanishing. The best solution is to stop this immigrant hate thing - they will be the people who will fill the vacuam and save some cities - they saved New York.
The highways? Come on, do you drive around the country at all? Sure, some are bad, but they are constantly being repaired and improved. If I remember, a major bill was signed about 2 years ago for highway repair - that's being spent now. Shit, come on up to upstate NY - even back farm roads are paved on a regular basis.
Stop whining about social security. First of all, It will always be there, because, as Bushie Boy found out, it's politically impossible to radically change it. That was his #1 priority after the last stolen election, and it took some time for him to realize that he was pissing into a heavy wind. And the boomers won't allow it over the next 20-30 years. So save your goddamn money. IRAs and 401ks are your friend. Pay yourself first. SS was only meant to be a supplement, anyway. If you have an overpriced SUV that sucks up overpriced gas and live in a large, overpriced home and watch a $5000 TV and buy the latest ski when you really don't need it, then you have some issues of your own to fix. Don't look to the politicians to help you.

Oh boy, where to start.

First, about myself: I am a 26 year old Civil Engineer working in Southern California for the past 2.5 years for a heavy civil contractor. Previous job experence includes: working at caltrans inspecting bridge foundations for maintence, and assisting in traffic studies on the I-80 corridor in Sacramento. I commute to Mammoth and Tahoe during the winter, visit my folks who recently moved to TX, and visit college buddies and wife's family who are mostly concentrated in Northern CA.

Translation: I have firsthand knowledge of the existing damage to the system, and firsthand knowledge of what repairs of said damage will cost. I have firsthand knowledge of the failing systems in the Los Angeles (see floods of early 2005, summer power failures, etc). I drive approx. 35k mi a year in a company vehicle.

I am in no way hoping for any SS benefits. I believe the current system is doomed due to the fact that:

1. People believe it is a safety net and it will be there because AARP and the guberment won't allow it to die. They are not planning and will further drain the system

2. It is run by the government. They suck at handling large scale projects. Private industry beats them every time.

3. The manufacturing base of this country is trickling to China. This leaves more management/executive jobs, which typically include longer lifespan (read: more SS paid out).

Sure, the govenment can allocate more tax dollars to the SS Admin, but the intent of SS was to be self-supporting. Where are the dollars going to come from? Increased SS tax? Swiped from other programs? Run up the debt? My point about the infrastructure being a huge liability is a real concern I have. Right now in CA, the SF Bay Bridge is being retrofitted/rebuilt for over $1 billion. The Golden Gate is undergoing over $500 million in seismic improvements. Five miles of vital roadway costing 1.5 billion dollars to repair. A basic overpass repair/retrofit runs about $7 million. How many do you drive over every day Benny? How long shall we wait until we decide to fix them? Until they collapse? These are real questions that will be bogged down in Washington, taking a huge slice of the pie once sections of 101 in downtown LA collapse. The gas tax that you pay on every gallon of unleaded is going toward repaving the roads, though necessary (and a favorite pork item), doesn't solve the larger problems. The huge trans. bill that recently passed was at least 50% pork. Regional development planning is further hurting the system, as people are becoming more willing to commute more than an hour (one way) to work.

Right now I am contributing heavily to my 401k and Roth IRA accounts which are in some rather aggressive growth funds. I'm bearish on the current housing market, currently renting and living as cheaply as possible. No CC debt, no school loans, no car payment. I'm not counting on one dime from SS, and planning accordingly.

[Benny Profane]

Oh boy, where to start.

First, about myself: I am a 26 year old Civil Engineer working in Southern California for the past 2.5 years for a heavy civil contractor. Previous job experence includes: working at caltrans inspecting bridge foundations for maintence, and assisting in traffic studies on the I-80 corridor in Sacramento. I commute to Mammoth and Tahoe during the winter, visit my folks who recently moved to TX, and visit college buddies and wife's family who are mostly concentrated in Northern CA.

Translation: I have firsthand knowledge of the existing damage to the system, and firsthand knowledge of what repairs of said damage will cost. I have firsthand knowledge of the failing systems in the Los Angeles (see floods of early 2005, summer power failures, etc). I drive approx. 35k mi a year in a company vehicle.

I am in no way hoping for any SS benefits. I believe the current system is doomed due to the fact that:

1. People believe it is a safety net and it will be there because AARP and the guberment won't allow it to die. They are not planning and will further drain the system

2. It is run by the government. They suck at handling large scale projects. Private industry beats them every time.

3. The manufacturing base of this country is trickling to China. This leaves more management/executive jobs, which typically include longer lifespan (read: more SS paid out).

Sure, the govenment can allocate more tax dollars to the SS Admin, but the intent of SS was to be self-supporting. Where are the dollars going to come from? Increased SS tax? Swiped from other programs? Run up the debt? My point about the infrastructure being a huge liability is a real concern I have. Right now in CA, the SF Bay Bridge is being retrofitted/rebuilt for over $1 billion. The Golden Gate is undergoing over $500 million in seismic improvements. Five miles of vital roadway costing 1.5 billion dollars to repair. A basic overpass repair/retrofit runs about $7 million. How many do you drive over every day Benny? How long shall we wait until we decide to fix them? Until they collapse? These are real questions that will be bogged down in Washington, taking a huge slice of the pie once sections of 101 in downtown LA collapse. The gas tax that you pay on every gallon of unleaded is going toward repaving the roads, though necessary (and a favorite pork item), doesn't solve the larger problems. The huge trans. bill that recently passed was at least 50% pork. Regional development planning is further hurting the system, as people are becoming more willing to commute more than an hour (one way) to work.

Right now I am contributing heavily to my 401k and Roth IRA accounts which are in some rather aggressive growth funds. I'm bearish on the current housing market, currently renting and living as cheaply as possible. No CC debt, no school loans, no car payment. I'm not counting on one dime from SS, and planning accordingly.

Oh, ahem, LA. sorry. Seriously, you should REALLY consider moving from that place, especially if you have some sort of home equity. It will be a very good financilal and psychic move. I mean, if it's this bad now, just imagine when that earthquake hits.

Oh, and this: "2. It is run by the government. They suck at handling large scale projects. Private industry beats them every time." - um, one word - Enron. Especially for someone from California.

[4matic]

SS was only meant to be a supplement, .

SS was never intended as a supplement. It came out of a need for old age assistance other than straight welfare on a case by case basis. The reason for this was the industrial revolution and mobility created a disconnected society where families no longer could care for it's aging family members financially

http://www.ssa.gov/history/fdrstmts.html#signing

"We must protect the crushable elements at the base of our present industrial structure...it is abnormal for any industry to throw back upon the community the human wreckage due to its wear and tear, and the hazards of sickness, accident, invalidism, involuntary unemployment, and old age should be provided for through insurance." TR would succeed in having a plank adopted in the Progressive Party platform that stated: "We pledge ourselves to work unceasingly in state and nation for: . . .The protection of home life against the hazards of sickness, irregular employment, and old age through the adoption of a system of social insurance adapted to American use."


7. PRESIDENTIAL STATEMENT SIGNING THE SOCIAL SECURITY ACT. AUGUST 14,1935

Today a hope of many years' standing is in large part fulfilled. The civilization of the past hundred years, with its startling industrial changes, has tended more and more to make life insecure. Young people have come to wonder what would be their lot when they came to old age. The man with a job has wondered how long the job would last.

This social security measure gives at least some protection to thirty millions of our citizens who will reap direct benefits through unemployment compensation, through old-age pensions and through increased services for the protection of children and the prevention of ill health.

We can never insure one hundred percent of the population against one hundred percent of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age.

This law, too, represents a cornerstone in a structure which is being built but is by no means complete. It is a structure intended to lessen the force of possible future depressions. It will act as a protection to future Administrations against the necessity of going deeply into debt to furnish relief to the needy. The law will flatten out the peaks and valleys of deflation and of inflation. It is, in short, a law that will take care of human needs and at the same time provide the United States an economic structure of vastly greater soundness.

[Benny Profane]

SS was never intended as a supplement.



This social security measure gives at least some protection to thirty millions of our citizens who will reap direct benefits through unemployment compensation, through old-age pensions and through increased services for the protection of children and the prevention of ill health.

We can never insure one hundred percent of the population against one hundred percent of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age.

Ummm....you contradict yourself with the above. "Some protection" and "We can never insure one hundred percent", and "some measure of protection". And notice how this was clearly tied into and early unemployment insurance concept, too. That, obviously, the states eventually took responsibility for in a seperate program.

But, if one is to put this in historical perspective, before this bill was signed, there was....nothing. 1935 - Just climbing out of the depression, when socialism was a high fallootin' Euro way of thinking, and the American citizen had nothing in the way of social programs, until Roosevelt thought up the New Deal. Nothing. So a little was a lot more than nothing. And it really hasn't changed much to this day. You get an SS statement in the mail every now and then, right, predicting future "earnings"? Could you live on that shit?? Or, better yet, ski and play in the mountains without some job taking up your time?
Another way to look at this in an historical perspective is that in 1900, the life expentancy of the average American male was 50. In 1935, I would guess.....55-58. So this wasn't an expensive way to think at that time. Now...well, as the dude just said on Scrubs (I like this show) Modern Medicine is the industry of keeping people alive for many more years than they should. So, we gotta figure out that thing. But that's Medicare's problem.

[fomofo]

17 years later. And now, this...

[SumJongGuy]

We'll just send our kids to steal all the shit from you goody two shoes nerds who saved for your retirement. full disclosure, we'll have about $1M including the house at the rate we're going.. that's not enough without working at Walmart.

[liv2ski]

Cash flow kids. Buy those rentals now and have paid off for retirement

[Harry]

If you're under 55 you're smoking crack if you think there'll be anything like the current system for you when you retire. Mathematical improbility.

^^ This post is from 2006. ^^

I was 48 years old then, well below age 55. I’ve never smoked crack, but these days I am enjoying my sweet Social Security checks each month.

Mathematically improbable?


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[oftpiste]

Cash flow kids. Buy those rentals now and have paid off for retirement

then if you're lucky you can give them away in a divorce!