To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[summit]

^^CT abd/pelvis?

UA UC CT abd/pelvis, clean... referral to urology. Gross hematuria resolved. Persistent microhematuria on repeat dips. Clean cystoscopy. Urology said "some people have persistent microhematuria. it's not cancer. go away." Then it happened again with the bivalent.

[bodywhomper]

Is there good data on prevalence of long covid from those with multiple infections or fully vaxed/boosted?

1 of 10 are not good odds, but that is a very coarse average. Know several former(!) athletes now that were fully vaxed…

ETA: hematuria: that sucks and sorry to hear about. . It looks like there are observational studies of it post covid vaccine and post covid infection.

[bennymac]

hematuria was also not that rare a thing prior to this whole covid problem - would want to see evidence it’s worsened/caused by covid/vax

[summit]

hematuria was also not that rare a thing prior to this whole covid problem - would want to see evidence it’s worsened/caused by covid/vax

For me?

My piss turned pink <24 hours after booster 3 & 4. It was accompanied by bilateral flank pain and lab confirmation. It might have even happened on vax 2 and I missed it as I wasn't paying attention to my piss as i felt like hell (certainly had the flank aches). Nothing like that has ever happened to me before, or since.

Once I thought was coincidence since it wasn't a known AE. Two correlated events is an AE for me to consider for me going forward, albeit negligibly rare in the population.

[Mofro261]

Is there good data on prevalence of long covid from those with multiple infections or fully vaxed/boosted?

1 of 10 are not good odds, but that is a very coarse average. Know several former(!) athletes now that were fully vaxed…

We do know vaccinations and infections reduce risks of LC. We also know that strain evolution has also reduced the risk of LC- with WA1 and Alpha this was >20%, Delta was more like 10% and now Omicron is less than 5% going on to develop LC. So both increases in immunity either via vax or infection help reduce risks, as well as the strain evolution resulting in less LC.

https://www.science.org/content/arti...get-long-covid
(People who catch Omicron are less likely to get Long Covid.
Vaccination, virus biology may be driving down risk)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9212672/
(Risk of long COVID associated with delta versus omicron variants of SARS-CoV-2)


Also- this is not a new post-viral infection phenomena as similar/overlapping symptoms can occur after a number of different viral and bacterial infections, and is likely a major contributor to ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (25 of 29 symptoms overlap- see below). Also likely that reactivation of dormat life long viruses (EBV, CMV, etc) you are carrying after Sars-S infection are contributing to symptoms.


from the review https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7

Box 3 Lessons from and for ME/CFS and the case of ‘long SARS’
It is hard to discuss or present data on long COVID without being challenged about the relationship of findings to mechanisms in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), not least by patient groups who understandably feel that their condition has endured decades of neglect in terms of biomedical research prioritization. In light of clear overlaps with long COVID, there now exists an opportunity for cross-hybridization, with much to be learnt from the long, past experience and investigations in ME/CFS, and from the new momentum of long COVID investigations over the past few years. The symptom overlap is self-evident, encompassing the key features of post-exertional fatigue, neurocognitive symptoms, dysautonomia and postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. A systematic review found that 25 of 29 CFS symptoms were reported by at least one long COVID study18, whereas another study compared genes common between the two conditions in a number of ways, including pathway and network analysis148. This study found common hub proteins, such as IL-6 and IL-1β, between the two conditions. Another review focused on their similarities through the link of TGFβ signalling and circadian rhythms148. There is resonance in the post-acute viral infection symptomology across the two conditions19. ME/CFS has commonly been described as a post-viral condition that may ensue following a range of infections, including pandemic H1N1 influenza149, Varicella zoster virus150, enteroviruses and SARS-CoV-117. Overlap in the immunopathological analyses is particularly interesting. It is noteworthy that raised CCL11, which has credentials as a long COVID serum biomarker functionally linked to neurocognitive symptoms, is also a biomarker of ME/CFS151. Revisiting the ME/CFS data also raises the possibility of investigating some of the implicated biomarkers, such as CXCL10 and leptin, in more detail in long COVID152. Furthermore, the ME/CFS data set may offer a reference framework to consider a role for Epstein–Barr virus reactivation in long COVID, noting that CFS can ensue from infectious mononucleosis associated with an enhanced imprint of T cell activation153.

[bennymac]

My comment wasn’t an attack or criticism of you or your hematuria or it’s relation to your vaccinations. Just saying that “hematuria” is not rare - there is a whole spectrum from benign to serious causes.

Acute interstitial nephritis has been known to occur post vaccination:

https://casereports.bmj.com/content/15/5/e246841

[Trackhead]

My comment wasn’t an attack or criticism of you or your hematuria or it’s relation to your vaccinations. Just saying that “hematuria” is not rare - there is a whole spectrum from benign to serious causes.

Acute interstitial nephritis has been known to occur post vaccination:

https://casereports.bmj.com/content/15/5/e246841

That was my thought…some sort of antigen based nephritis. Kinda crazy, and certainly in his case, seems correlated.

[Trackhead]

More evidence: pretty interesting, and while rare, certainly reinforces my thought of do I really need another booster that offers marginal protection? In my case, no.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9059008/

[jono]

More evidence: pretty interesting, and while rare, certainly reinforces my thought of do I really need another booster that offers marginal protection? In my case, no.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9059008/

The problem of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" is kind of baked into an initial look like that, but the authors kind of try to defuse that by saying their results don't support vaccine hesitancy. Of course, they could be wrong.

The relevant information would be the relative risk ratio for these symptoms and conditions with and without vaccination. How often do they occur after disease or with neither vaccine or virus? But they excluded anyone with signs of infection and anyone with neither, so there isn't even any data to compare.

I'm eligible for another boost and haven't gotten it yet. I don't see the point in another exposure to the OG spike that's effectively or literally extinct at this point, but if there's an omicron+ (only) booster I expect to get it. All evidence I'm seeing (which does seem thin) still points to worse outcomes from virus than vaccine. My own experiences thus far have been 100-500x worse with virus than vaccine. So seeing medical professionals getting hesitant about vaccines makes a good case for masks, which continue to improve. Thanks for that!

[bodywhomper]

We do know vaccinations and infections reduce risks of LC. We also know that strain evolution has also reduced the risk of LC- with WA1 and Alpha this was >20%, Delta was more like 10% and now Omicron is less than 5% going on to develop LC. So both increases in immunity either via vax or infection help reduce risks, as well as the strain evolution resulting in less LC.

https://www.science.org/content/arti...get-long-covid
(People who catch Omicron are less likely to get Long Covid.
Vaccination, virus biology may be driving down risk)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9212672/
(Risk of long COVID associated with delta versus omicron variants of SARS-CoV-2)


Also- this is not a new post-viral infection phenomena as similar/overlapping symptoms can occur after a number of different viral and bacterial infections, and is likely a major contributor to ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (25 of 29 symptoms overlap- see below). Also likely that reactivation of dormat life long viruses (EBV, CMV, etc) you are carrying after Sars-S infection are contributing to symptoms.


from the review https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7

Thanks for the response.

That March 2023 Science article is pretty interesting, like the characterization omicron as a different virus (I’ve seen people sometimes describe it as “sars-cov-3”) and the trickiness of making meaningful conclusions from the data. It seems like a lot of the studies and data were up to June 2022, before the large summer 2022 wave, the issuance of the bivalent booster vax, and the waves in the fall 2022 and winter 2023. It’d be interesting to see updated data as that could provide meaningful information about benefits of the next booster.

Iwasaki indicates that the risk is too high for her personal comfort level. She gave an NPR interview last spring and mentioned that her age (middle age) and gender puts her in a vulnerable demographic for long covid.

It is troubling seeing and knowing people that have not recovered and considering that it could happen to you, too.

[LongShortLong]

Thanks for the updates. I'm still avoiding indoor spaces, as a 5% risk of long covid sounds too high for someone who enjoys athletic pursuits.

That's said, it's time to see doctors for various checkups. My plan is the get the bivalent booster (I haven't had one) hoping that gives temporary protection vs infection for a couple months. Anyone know if it does?

(I skipped the bivalent because going indoors at a pharmacy seemed higher risk than skipping, and there were no outdoor options)

[supermodel159]

For sure get more boosters!

[Trackhead]

I don’t mean to marginalize the long covid risk, but I think for me personally, based on what I see in ER and primary care, I don’t think the risk is remotely high enough to change anything in my life. Not trashing on people for making personal risk assessments for themselves, but I really don’t think booster after booster and avoiding public spaces is necessary.

[Buzzworthy]

I’ve got two shots and have had Covid twice.
I have no clue whether to get another booster or not. But I’m definitely back to life as normal before Covid. Well, a little more precaution but that’s it. I definitely got caught up in the pandemic hysteria but maybe that saved me more Covid infections, who knows.
Cool story bro.

[californiagrown]

I’ve got two shots and have had Covid twice.
I have no clue whether to get another booster or not. But I’m definitely back to life as normal before Covid. Well, a little more precaution but that’s it. I definitely got caught up in the pandemic hysteria but maybe that saved me more Covid infections, who knows.
Cool story bro.

I have been jabbed 3 times and cought covid twice. Both times were like a pretty solid flu. First time i had lingering fatigue issues for about 6 weeks after. Second time i am still dealing with brainfog/ADD type shit a few months later which i cant confirm is tied to covid or just other life shit going on.

Either way i dont really see why i wouldnt just stack the covid vaccine ontop of the flu vaccine i get most winters.

[oldnew_guy]

I have been jabbed 3 times and cought covid twice. Both times were like a pretty solid flu. First time i had lingering fatigue issues for about 6 weeks after. Second time i am still dealing with brainfog/ADD type shit a few months later which i cant confirm is tied to covid or just other life shit going on.

Either way i dont really see why i wouldnt just stack the covid vaccine ontop of the flu vaccine i get most winters.

The brain fog was startling and a major red flag for me since my income is majorly reliant on my brain functioning. I've never had anything like it. I literally could not retain a number in my brain for more than a few seconds.

[Trackhead]

^^Im 51, I don’t need long covid to have those symptoms

[liv2ski]

At almost 65, I am way ahead of you.

[bodywhomper]

Haven’t there been headlines about HC workers in the UK that are cutting back or leaving because of their own LC?

[SumJongGuy]

COVID attacks whatever your personal physiological Achilles heel happens to be. Add in the effects if increased heat, forever chemicals in the water tables, crappy food additives/preservatives, Round Up, etc..

It's no wonder that everyone feels like shit nowadays..

[jono]

The brain fog was startling and a major red flag for me since my income is majorly reliant on my brain functioning. I've never had anything like it. I literally could not retain a number in my brain for more than a few seconds.

That was my recent experience, too. I had to stop working outright for a week or two at the end of March--and I don't remember which. Felt a bit better and then a resurgence ended my ski season, which is always nice.

Contrasts pretty dramatically with my first omicron exposure that gave me a sniffle for less than a day when my wife was positive. Either the damn thing got a lot worse or it helped a lot to be a few weeks out from a half-Moderna the first time versus 7 months post-bivalent. Or both?

[bodywhomper]

So when y’all are feeling ill, are you taking any personal measures to minimize spreading whatever you have to others and doing RATs to confirm whether it’s covid?

Haven’t there been headlines about HC workers in the UK that are cutting back or leaving because of their own LC?

Found it. Pretty small sample size. I musta seen some headlines reporting on the bmj article. https://www.bmj.com/content/382/bmj.p1529

[Trackhead]

^^ I Covid test myself if I get sick. I test patients less and less, as often times it won’t change treatment at all. At this point asking patients if they’ve been covid vaccinated is essentially irrelevant.

We don’t wear masks at work, and the oncology unit I was a patient in no longer wears them. Patients still often times wear N95s in oncology infusion centers.

[jono]

So when y’all are feeling ill, are you taking any personal measures to minimize spreading whatever you have to others and doing RATs to confirm whether it’s covid?

Yeah, I make liberal use of masks. The night before my wife tested positive I slept in a doubled-gaitor facing the other way and then we split the house and wore good masks in common areas for a couple weeks. My two PCRs were negative.

This last time I kinda let the recommendations get to me. Quarantined for the first stretch, started feeling better after a while and spent a day at a client's site (masked, still coughing a little), but let my guard down a bit when I left. My wife came down with it 3 days later and after a week I was flattened again.

Tests are hard to come by here these days.

If I quantified my risk management it would reflect happily wearing a good mask for at least twice as many hours as I'm willing to be sick in a given year (targeted to situations, obviously). So far I'm behind.

My wife is still wearing an N95 for her entire work days. She's convinced she caught it the first time the day she took it off for lunch with sniffly co-workers.

[Buzzworthy]

So when y’all are feeling ill, are you taking any personal measures to minimize spreading whatever you have to others and doing RATs to confirm whether it’s covid?

Did before Covid and definitely after. When I’m sick I stay home. Not looking to give my crud to anyone else, including family. I hole up in the guest room.

And this last time I felt crappy I tested for Covid. However my test expiration dates had passed. Negative but still holed up in guest room for 2 days till I felt better.