Ukraine

[rideit]

Gimme a break, I’m new here.

[Buster Highmen]

to the contrarian religion they are the same thing.

I continue to wallow in the hope that the reasoned know the difference.

[Buster Highmen]

Still, i see FACTS here without any critical thinking.
100,000 dead Russian soldiers, as claimed by Ukraine?
Or 5,000 as claimed by Russia?
I think it's propaganda on both sides.

Irrelevant again?

[grinch]

There were good people....on both sides

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[rideit]

But only one side had washing machine and refrigerator manuals in the dead men's pockets.

[4matic]

Ruthless battle for small Donbas town, Soledar today is a place of new Russian tactic: sending groups of former prisoners over and over, simply to to die and be replaced by new groups. Wagner group kill squads push them forward and shoot them if they retreat.

[ex-powderbroker]

kinzinger saying there’s evidence of russian soldiers in ukrainian uniforms murdering soldiers in the confusion.

[tetzen]

I’ve seen that video. Some people claim that it was Wagner mercs in the foxhole in Ukrainian uniforms. Some others claim that it was Wagner mercs wearing ZSU uniforms that ambushed Ukrainians.

The thing that makes me think it was Wagner mercs in the hole was they had yellow armbands. Ukraine just switched to Green armbands a few days ago. Presumably to counter the Wagner mercs that were disguising themselves with yellow/blue armbands. I’ve also seen someone post that an ID was found on the foxhole guy with his address in St. Petersburg.

Wish there was a more definitive answer, but it’s the fog of battle.

[Bunion 2020]

Wish there was a more definitive answer, but it’s the fog of battle.

This. And in a battle like this is killing of people in uniform "murder"?

[cspringsposer]

Wearing the uniform of the enemy is a violation of the Geneva Convention. So is genocide but the Russians ignore that part of the international convention as well.

[Cono Este]

Why won’t the USA send real tanks? Then Germany would.

I don’t think they want Ukraine to win anything, just not lose and instead die slowly.

What other explanation is there?

[twat]

Ukr lost soledar, still holding bachmut.

[MultiVerse]

Germany doesn't want to send tanks and is using the inappropriateness of M1 Abrams in Ukraine as an excuse. The US is otherwise sending an assortment of armored tank-like vehicles. So is France and other countries. Other countries are also pledging their own German built Leopard tanks but can't send them without German permission.

This is all about German public opinion at home.

[Cono Este]

lol, cono is a dumb political hack. Germany doesn't want to send tanks and is using the inappropriateness of M1 Abrams in Ukraine as an excuse. The US is otherwise sending an assortment of armed tank-like vehicles. So is France and other countries. Other countries are also pledging their own German built Leopard tanks but can't send them without German permission.

This is all about German public opinion at home.

Answer the question. Why are we not sending real tanks? And why have we waited so long to send the Bradleys? They probably won’t even be I service in time for what they knew was coming.

[MultiVerse]

I did answer the question, homer.

[ötzi]

You know why they haven't sent them, Cono - an abundance of caution on providing "offensive" weapons to attempt to prevent escalation. I certainly think we've been far too cautious but I'd think that you, with all your hand-wringing about nuclear destruction, would approve. But, nyet. Huh.

[MultiVerse]

German public opinion is somewhere around 2/3rds opposed to sending German built weapons to Ukraine. Scholz is stalling as a result. He still might give go-ahead anyway. Some of this is theater.

The United States is sending Bradleys, 90 Stryker armored vehicles, NASAMS, HiMARS, MRAPS, HMMWVS, and more.

Covered earlier in this thread, the US M1 Abrams is a logistics nightmare. It uses something like a gallon of fuel a minute.

[teleee]

German public opinion is somewhere around 2/3rds opposed to sending German built weapons to Ukraine. Scholz is stalling as a result. He still might give go-ahead anyway. Some of this is theater.

The United States is sending Bradleys, 90 Stryker armored vehicles, NASAMS, HiMARS, MRAPS, HMMWVS, and more.

Covered earlier in this thread, the US M1 Abrams is a logistics nightmare. It uses something like a gallon of fuel a minute.

Not just fuel but JET FUEL - a logistical nightmare for a force that is already stretched thin. Man cono is dumb!


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[summit]

Leopard = diesel = established field logistics
M1 = gas turbine = 0.3mpg

Keep in mind some UKR T-80s have "gas" turbines but they run on almost any fuel including diesel. The M1` turbine is also capable of using almost any fuel.

Germany talks out of both sides of their mouth... all DefMin Pistorius:
"US must first send tanks if Germany is expected to."
"US doesn't have to send tanks now, just someday."
"Germany won't send tanks but others can."

[Cono Este]

“President Biden has a detailed scenario of this war in the White House. The sooner we get weapons the sooner we finish the war, but it looks like the U.S. wants Russia to exhaust itself with all of its war efforts,” Zhdanov told The Daily Beast.“

How nice of us.

https://news.yahoo.com/putin-secret-...094858834.html

[Toadman]

Why won’t the USA send real tanks? Then Germany would.

I don’t think they want Ukraine to win anything, just not lose and instead die slowly.

What other explanation is there?

My opinion is that those tanks wouldn't last long in the current theater of war. There's a UAF soldier who posts on Twitter, I will try to find the link, but he basically said that no armor lasts long on either side in Soledar or Bakhmut. I'm sure NATO military experts probably have their own assessment of what bringing tanks into Ukraine would look like.

Ultimately know one on this board knows the true answer.

[leroy jenkins]

German public opinion is somewhere around 2/3rds opposed to sending German built weapons to Ukraine. Scholz is stalling as a result. He still might give go-ahead anyway. Some of this is theater.

The United States is sending Bradleys, 90 Stryker armored vehicles, NASAMS, HiMARS, MRAPS, HMMWVS, and more.

Covered earlier in this thread, the US M1 Abrams is a logistics nightmare. It uses something like a gallon of fuel a minute.

And also needs all sorts of trained support, trained mechanics, recovery vehicles for when a tank gets stuck or disabled, and people trained not just on using those vehicles but how to do so in a combat scenario etc etc. Also just the use of those tanks is something that has to be done very carefully I think. They're an asset but also a liability if used incorrectly. Especially without air support. And they're super expensive, in total cost, cost to operate, spare parts etc.

[leroy jenkins]

My opinion is that those tanks wouldn't last long in the current theater of war. There's a UAF soldier who posts on Twitter, I will try to find the link, but he basically said that no armor lasts long on either side in Soledar or Bakhmut. I'm sure NATO military experts probably have their own assessment of what bringing tanks into Ukraine would look like.

Ultimately know one on this board knows the true answer.

From what I know a great deal of careful thought and planning went into every single deployment of armor in the second iraq war.

[Cono Este]

I hope those Bradleys get there in a hurry. They should have authorized them 6 months ago.

[Cocximus]

Russia has the potential to be a formidable adversary. While it's been pillaged and raped from within, long term it can pick up steam and get its act together. The longer the war drags on, Ukraine's chances of winning it dwindle. This was supposed to be the free democratic world's fight against tyranny. Give them nuclear tipped tanks, laser sharks, and space phasers to win quickly, or they will get crushed.