The Nutrition Science thread

[Dantheman]

I just grab the brands that Costco has when they're on sale. Otherwise it's a bit spendy. Capsules are really expensive on a g/$ basis so I definitely avoid those. Good old-fashioned gelatin is also legit and less expensive, though it's better for cooking. As a straight supplement hydrolyzed collagen is easier to deal with since it dissolves in cold liquids and doesn't solidify when cooled.

Since this has garnered some interest, here's a good literature review from Rhonda Patrick on this subject: https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/collagen

I've also been using glycine powder as a sweetener for a few years. There's a dearth of research on isolated glycine compared to collagen, but a lot of the benefits of collagen are attributed to glycine and there's fairly solid research showing that 1) glycine is important for a lot more than just collagen synthesis, and 2) most people probably don't get enough. This paper posits that we can synthesize about 3 g/day from serine and get another 1.5-3 g/day from diet, which leaves us about 10 g short of the amount needed for all metabolic uses: https://www.academia.edu/33366715/A_...agen_synthesis

Glycine is really sweet, about the same sweetness as glucose and about 70% as sweet as sucrose. It dissolves pretty easily and makes a very convenient beverage sweetener that is probably good for you. It's also relatively cheap at around $0.20/serving compared to >$1/serving for most collagen powders.

[californiagrown]

Collagen is similar to turmeric. There is some benefit but largely overstated and much larger benefit could be seen from simple lifestyle changes instead. Too many folks majoring in the minors when it comes to supplements. This is TRG though, where majoring in the minors is the norm.

Get your fruits and veggies in at every meal, eat only whole foods, limit alcohol, eat lots of animal protein and good fats, hydrate, and move a bunch each day. That will get you 90% of the way there. If you want to supplement, use protein powder and creatine. that will get you another 7% of the way there. Who the fuck really cares about the last 3%, especially if you are paying hundreds and hundred of dollars... and if you arent paying that much you are underdosing and seeing placebo effects at best.


My "guilty treat" with supps is i make a peri-workout drink for skiing/MTBing when its a long day. Its a concentrated mix of Tang, Preworkout, and EAAs. If i am working HARD and its been a couple hours from last meal, and will be another couple hours to a meal i will slam a 20oz concoction of the above. Has a bunch of carbs (tang), a bunch of caffeine and beta alanine (preworkout), and EAAs to increase overall recovery ability from the day. I think it works well.

[Mazderati]

Reduced consumption of animal protein seems like a great use case for collagen supplementation.

[Dantheman]

Collagen is similar to turmeric.

[/eyeroll]

[californiagrown]

[/eyeroll]

and acai, and apple cider vinegar, etc. Big hype, minimal benefit, and a people with an already healthy diet wont see much if any benefit.

[Dantheman]

and acai, and apple cider vinegar, etc. Big hype, minimal benefit, and a people with an already healthy diet wont see much if any benefit.

Read that Rhonda Patrick link.

1. It's unequivocal fact that collagen production declines dramatically with age.
2. High-quality radiolabeling studies prove that dietary collagen peptides are incorporated into connective tissue in vivo.
3. Numerous randomized controlled trials in humans have shown collagen supplementation to outperform placebo for multiple clinical endpoints for skin, bone, and joint health.


In an absolute worst-case scenario, glycine allows you to make delicious, healthy, sugar-free lemonade that only costs a few cents more than what you pay for the lemons.

eta: While the claims that ACV will cure cancer and shit are obviously bullshit, there is a mountain of strong clinical evidence that vinegar dramatically improves post-prandial glucose control even in healthy insulin-sensitive people.

[Danno]

Collagen is similar to turmeric. There is some benefit but largely overstated and much larger benefit could be seen from simple lifestyle changes instead. Too many folks majoring in the minors when it comes to supplements. This is TRG though, where majoring in the minors is the norm.

Get your fruits and veggies in at every meal, eat only whole foods, limit alcohol, eat lots of animal protein and good fats, hydrate, and move a bunch each day. That will get you 90% of the way there. If you want to supplement, use protein powder and creatine. that will get you another 7% of the way there. Who the fuck really cares about the last 3%, especially if you are paying hundreds and hundred of dollars... and if you arent paying that much you are underdosing and seeing placebo effects at best.


My "guilty treat" with supps is i make a peri-workout drink for skiing/MTBing when its a long day. Its a concentrated mix of Tang, Preworkout, and EAAs. If i am working HARD and its been a couple hours from last meal, and will be another couple hours to a meal i will slam a 20oz concoction of the above. Has a bunch of carbs (tang), a bunch of caffeine and beta alanine (preworkout), and EAAs to increase overall recovery ability from the day. I think it works well.

[/eyeroll]

and acai, and apple cider vinegar, etc. Big hype, minimal benefit, and a people with an already healthy diet wont see much if any benefit.

Read that Rhonda Patrick link.

1. It's unequivocal fact that collagen production declines dramatically with age.
2. High-quality radiolabeling studies prove that dietary collagen peptides are incorporated into connective tissue in vivo.
3. Numerous randomized controlled trials in humans have shown collagen supplementation to outperform placebo for multiple clinical endpoints for skin, bone, and joint health.

californaigrown fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is this, never go in against dantheman when nutrition science is on the line.

[californiagrown]

Read that Rhonda Patrick link.

1. It's unequivocal fact that collagen production declines dramatically with age.
2. High-quality radiolabeling studies prove that dietary collagen peptides are incorporated into connective tissue in vivo.
3. Numerous randomized controlled trials in humans have shown collagen supplementation to outperform placebo for multiple clinical endpoints for skin, bone, and joint health.


In an absolute worst-case scenario, glycine allows you to make delicious, healthy, sugar-free lemonade that only costs a few cents more than what you pay for the lemons.

eta: While the claims that ACV will cure cancer and shit are obviously bullshit, there is a mountain of strong clinical evidence that vinegar dramatically improves post-prandial glucose control even in healthy insulin-sensitive people.

Again, majoring in minors. Is there a benefit? Sure. Is it worth supplementing? For some people, but most would see greater benefit from generally eating better and moving more. Similar to all the other fad foods they are a small piece of the puzzle that people like to focus on while ignoring the other 100 pieces. So yeah i like to callout majoring in the minors with diet exercise when i see it. Keep the main thing the main thing. Focus on fundamentals. Etc.


FWIW i used collagen w/vit C during rehab back from a knee ligament tear. I recovered quick. How much was due to collagen supplementation vs being religous about rehab, diet, cardio shape, sleep etc during the recovery? probably a very small part.

[Dantheman]

This is the nutrition science thread, not the "Basic Lifestyle Advice for Obese Mouth Breathers Who Can't Accept That There Are No Shortcuts" thread.

[californiagrown]

Obese Mouth Breathers Who Can't Accept That There Are No Shortcuts" thread.

Are you sure this thread isnt 90% that demographic? haha. Maybe obese was a bit much.

IME, and im sure yours too, the above describes the large majority of folks asking you for supplement/workout tips and tricks.


Anyways, ill fuck off and stop cunting up this thread. My top nutritional science tip: Undutched cocoa helps stave off the jitters from too much coffee, and is packed with antioxidants. Mix it into a breakfast smoothie or your morning coffee.

[Dantheman]

IME, and im sure yours too, the above describes the large majority of folks asking you for supplement/workout tips and tricks.

I'd like to the think that I don't offer up "tips and tricks" but rather a sober review of the available scientific evidence.

My top nutritional science tip: Undutched cocoa helps stave off the jitters from too much coffee, and is packed with antioxidants. Mix it into a breakfast smoothie or your morning coffee.

Cocoa powder is definitely healthy AF. Your reported reduction in caffeine jitters is probably related to the theobromine content (hypothesizing, I haven't research this, but theobromine is the primary psychoactive compound in cocoa besides caffeine), or maybe even just the fiber content slowing absorption. For caffeine jitters, consider trying L-Theanine. There's a lot of research out there on caffeine+theanine with the consensus being that combining caffeine with theanine produces a mellower, more attenuated buzz than caffeine alone and ameliorates the vasoconstriction and BP rise associated with caffeine alone. Most reputable brands cost less than 5 cents per 200 mg dose.

[californiagrown]

I'd like to the think that I don't offer up "tips and tricks" but rather a sober review of the available scientific evidence.



Cocoa powder is definitely healthy AF. Your reported reduction in caffeine jitters is probably related to the theobromine content (hypothesizing, I haven't research this, but theobromine is the primary psychoactive compound in cocoa besides caffeine), or maybe even just the fiber content slowing absorption. For caffeine jitters, consider trying L-Theanine. There's a lot of research out there on caffeine+theanine with the consensus being that combining caffeine with theanine produces a mellower, more attenuated buzz than caffeine alone and ameliorates the vasoconstriction and BP rise associated with caffeine alone. Most reputable brands cost less than 5 cents per 200 mg dose.

Ali Boolani, Jacob B. Lindheimer, Bryan D. Loy, Stephen. "Acute effects of brewed cocoa consumption on attention, motivation to perform cognitive work and feelings of anxiety, energy and fatigue: a randomized, placebo-controlled crossover experiment," BMC, 13 January 2017.


I see zero effect from L-theanine FWIW. Im honestly not sure i see an effect from the cocoa powder in my morning smoothie before coffee (could be placebo), but its super cheap, supposedly super healthy, and i fucking love chocolate so a more intense chocolate flavor is always a plus for me.

[bagtagley]

I see an instant effect on my happiness from a daily intake of annoyingly dark chocolate. Kinda partial to the Trader Joe's stuff despite its waxiness and weird but delicious flavor.

[Dantheman]

I've never met a >70% I didn't like.

[neufox47]

Interesting on the collagen. I just bought a kilo of hydrolyzed collagen from bulk supplements for $30. Knocks on wood…. I’ve never had a major knee injury but as someone who skies hard, lifts heavy, and is over 200lbs my knees could use some help.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[californiagrown]

Interesting on the collagen. I just bought a kilo of hydrolyzed collagen from bulk supplements for $30. Knocks on wood…. I’ve never had a major knee injury but as someone who skies hard, lifts heavy, and is over 200lbs my knees could use some help.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

I like Bulk Supplements. Its where i get my EAAs from. Unflavored and horrible tasting somewhat by design. You know what will make your joints feel way better than collagen? Deca. Is this the right place to post that?


Anyone here slam some baking soda before a big MTB ride or ski day? What is your preferred dosing protocol?

[Dantheman]

I like Bulk Supplements.

BS is pretty great. I don't remember their collagen prices being that good so that heads up is appreciated.

You know what will make your joints feel way better than collagen? Deca. Is this the right place to post that?

Probably not the right thread for it, but I don't have any particular philosophical opposition to PEDs. I would recommend not procuring them from some dude at the gym. If you want to go that route find an agreeable physician.

Anyone here slam some baking soda before a big MTB ride or ski day? What is your preferred dosing protocol?

From what I've read about bicarb and what XrtPickles has posted in the Sprockets training thread it's short-acting and only useful for very high-intensity efforts that last a few minutes at most. In the amounts required it's a fine line between achieving a performance benefit and creating shit-your-pants level GI distress, so tread lightly.

[Danno]

His post seemed like more cunting/trolling, good for you for not taking the bait.

[zion zig zag]

As an obese mouth breather looking for shortcuts, I appreciate having DTM do some of the research for me. Day 2 of collagen coming up.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[fool]

Read that Rhonda Patrick link.

1. It's unequivocal fact that collagen production declines dramatically with age.
2. High-quality radiolabeling studies prove that dietary collagen peptides are incorporated into connective tissue in vivo.
3. Numerous randomized controlled trials in humans have shown collagen supplementation to outperform placebo for multiple clinical endpoints for skin, bone, and joint health.

In an absolute worst-case scenario, glycine allows you to make delicious, healthy, sugar-free lemonade that only costs a few cents more than what you pay for the lemons.

eta: While the claims that ACV will cure cancer and shit are obviously bullshit, there is a mountain of strong clinical evidence that vinegar dramatically improves post-prandial glucose control even in healthy insulin-sensitive people.

DTM, re: the ACV comment, what does that mean for generally healthy people? How should they use it / how are you using it? And in that same vein...what is your general daily/weekly supplement structure? Would also be curious of other healthy/nerdy mags thoughts on the supplement front (focusing on generally healthy/active people in their 30s/40s).

I only take Vit D right now, but based on this thread, I have been looking at other reasonable and beneficial supplements for a relatively healthy adult. (I did try that tingly stuff from the cycling training thread but didn't think it was that beneficial for me as an endurance runner).

After listening to Huberman on alcohol, I'm trying to be smarter about consumption (even though I'm a light drinker). Though not a perfect analogy, he quotes a study that equates one drink to 10 cigarettes. Even if it's wrong and it's closer to three cigarettes, that's insane (I'm not a smoker). I've also been meaning to listen to Huberman with Peter Attia.

Edit: in that podcast episode, and from other sources, I've heard a fair bit about B12. Collagen and glycine have been discussed a fair bit on TGR and I'm also intrigued by BCAA/EAAs.

[Trackhead]

This is the nutrition science thread, not the "Basic Lifestyle Advice for Obese Mouth Breathers Who Can't Accept That There Are No Shortcuts" thread.

Like my patients, where we just increase the insulin or add a GLP-1 agonist instead of just losing a bit of weight. See you in three months........oh look, nothing changed.

[neufox47]

Pretty wild study that proposes gut bacteria causes people to regain weight after a diet. Eating a high protein diet after ending weight loss helped prevent people from gaining the weight back

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-022-00687-6


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Dantheman]

DTM, re: the ACV comment, what does that mean for generally healthy people? How should they use it / how are you using it? And in that same vein...what is your general daily/weekly supplement structure? Would also be curious of other healthy/nerdy mags thoughts on the supplement front (focusing on generally healthy/active people in their 30s/40s).

I only take Vit D right now, but based on this thread, I have been looking at other reasonable and beneficial supplements for a relatively healthy adult. (I did try that tingly stuff from the cycling training thread but didn't think it was that beneficial for me as an endurance runner).

After listening to Huberman on alcohol, I'm trying to be smarter about consumption (even though I'm a light drinker). Though not a perfect analogy, he quotes a study that equates one drink to 10 cigarettes. Even if it's wrong and it's closer to three cigarettes, that's insane (I'm not a smoker). I've also been meaning to listen to Huberman with Peter Attia.

Edit: in that podcast episode, and from other sources, I've heard a fair bit about B12. Collagen and glycine have been discussed a fair bit on TGR and I'm also intrigued by BCAA/EAAs.

Sorry, missed this post the first time. I'll try to write up a response this weekend.

Like my patients, where we just increase the insulin or add a GLP-1 agonist instead of just losing a bit of weight. See you in three months........oh look, nothing changed.

But, they're still better off with metformin and Wegovy and no lifestyle changes than nothing at all. If they were addicted to heroin instead of junk food we'd tell them to fuck off and come back when they can piss clean for soda.

Pretty wild study that proposes gut bacteria causes people to regain weight after a diet. Eating a high protein diet after ending weight loss helped prevent people from gaining the weight back

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-022-00687-6

Interesting, thanks.

[Hopeless Sinner]

Like my patients, where we just increase the insulin or add a GLP-1 agonist instead of just losing a bit of weight. See you in three months........oh look, nothing changed.

My PCP is probably feeling the same way about me. My numbers are all very good, but A1C is just a bit high and it went up slightly last week. Of course he left a condescending phone message w/out seeing or talking to me after he saw the test results. After years and years of seeing patients fail its to be expected, hence the attitude.

Yeah my attempt to lose weight and drop some carbs seemed like it failed, but he's already given up on me. I don't want to fix this w a Rx so I did some more research in the last few days and came up w a better strategy. I have no excuse for failing to modify my diet or lose weight, but others may not have the time or money, or knowledge to make changes in lifetime habits.

I used to be less active, have more stress, sleep less, weigh more, eat worse yet the A1C was never high - does the pancreas just slow down or are there other factors involved too? In my estimation covering it up w an Rx doesn't get to the root cause.

[Trackhead]

^^I don’t ever order hemoglobin A1C anywhere near Thanksgiving or Christmas. Too much alcohol and cheesecake.