The Nutrition Science thread

[Danno]

20 g/day is crazy, crazy low. I'm not surprised at all you felt like crap. Even 50-70 g/day is still very low carb. There's no formal definition of "low carb," but most reasonable sources put the cutoff at somewhere around 20-25% of total daily calories. As an active 29 y.o. I am going to guess you're eating at least 3,000 kcal/day, so "low carb" for you is more like 150-200 g/day.

20g/day is basically a keto diet. So crazy low, sure, but not something outside of the bounds of a normal diet for some. And the feeling like crap isn't because it's just too low, it's because of the keto flu. Basically, the SAD has people addicted to carbs, so it is essentially withdrawal symptoms. The symptoms subside after a bit. And based on the idea of getting fat adapted (to the extent that is a thing, I'm no nutrition expert but have read a bunch of stuff revolving around keto, but it certainly feels like a thing in my body), it might help to have those low carb days to get to that point.

FWIW, I have days that are surely around 25g of carbs, and I suspect most days are in the 50-70 range. I rarely have days in the 150-200 range. Have been living that diet for 5+ years.

[PeachesNCream]

Cool. Happy to hear this is “normal” to feel like crap. I feel a lot better today. Had ~15 grams of carbs for breakfast and ~20 for lunch and the keto flu is basically gone, which is so nice. Sounds like low carb is a sliding scale and not black and white like keto. Probably will keep experimenting with this for the next few weeks.


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[Trackhead]

Been having some energy issues and after talking with a friend, he thought I may be too carb dependent. I’m 29, active, eat healthy, and don’t have any medical conditions so shouldn’t be having so much issues with energy. I don’t think carbs are the devil but my energy seems pretty dependent on them which isn’t ideal. For example, I’ll eat a high carb meal, feel good for ~2 hours and then crash. If I eat a high protein or high fat meal I’ll feel sluggish and not get an energy boost. My friend said he had a couple of fit family members, but they loved sugar and were pre-diabetic and the doc was about to put them on meds. They moved to a low carb diet and they returned to normal levels. I don’t think I’m to that level but I do seem to be dependent on carbs for energy so thought it made sense to “train” your body to be less dependent on carbs. Zach bitter broke the 100 mile record with a low carb approach so seems like you can still do plenty of cardio based activities on low carb. My goal isn’t to go low carb every day but maybe Monday and Tuesday just to try to “teach” my body to not be reliant. Anyways, yesterday was the first day. I ate ~20 grams of carbs for the day. Felt so weird, couldn’t concentrate, felt a floaty feeling, woke up in the middle of the night feeling dizzy, low energy, spacey, honestly reminded me of fasting. I’m not looking for suggestions on solving the energy issues, but what do people think about my reaction to going low carb? Is this normal? Does my thinking of teaching your body to burn fats/proteins make sense? Today I’m going to stick with the low carb, but shoot for 50-70 carbs

There's exactly zero reason for an otherwise healthy, non-obese, 29 year old to think he/she has prediabetes and engage in an extreme low carb diet with this being the influencing factor. I know DTM will disagree, but the odds of having prediabetes in your demographic is essentially zero.

There's also athletes that excel at zero/low carb, athletes that run 200 miles with no food, athletes that kick ass on vegan diets, and athletes that kick ass on 100% junk food. There is no perfect/superior diet despite what blogs and the media tell you, and keto or low carb is no different.

Eat whole foods, avoid junk food, the rest doesn't really matter. You will find exactly zero Tour de France cyclists following a low carb diet except Chris Froome on a rest day or out of competition. Agree with DTM on definition of "low carb".

[Danno]

There's also athletes that excel at zero/low carb, athletes that run 200 miles with no food, athletes that kick ass on vegan diets, and athletes that kick ass on 100% junk food. There is no perfect/superior diet despite what blogs and the media tell you, and keto or low carb is no different.

Eat whole foods, avoid junk food, the rest doesn't really matter.

I totally agree. The only caveat I would add to this is trying various diets is a way to try and find something that works for you. I ate reasonably healthy and still over the years saw my weight creep upwards even as I tried to increase exercise and reduce calories (I have seen the recent stuff about how your metabolism doesn't change as you age and that feels WRONG to me and what I have experienced). Trying keto worked for me in a way nothing else did, it curbed my appetite and whatever else and I dropped 25 pounds. And I have been very low carb (definitely no longer keto) for the last 5 years and I have kept the weight off.

I don't think low carb or keto is some magic thing, just like no diet is some magic thing. The best diet is one you can stick to (so I guess it's MY magic thing). But how will you know which one you can stick to if you feel like you are struggling with diet but don't try anything new? My meals are whole foods, good foods, just not much carbs. But until I tried this diet, I was overeating in a way I seemingly couldn't control. Some people don't need a "diet" to get it right, maybe you are one of those lucky people. I wasn't.

[californiagrown]

The only caveat I would add to this is trying various diets is a way to try and find something that works for you.

Bingo. Your body is 1/1 so try a bunch of things out, keep the things that worked well and discard the things that didnt. Tinker around till you find something that is healthy, makes you feel great physically and mentally, and is easy to follow daily from a logistics standpoint (cheap, limited cooktime/prep, widely available foods, etc). Other than making sure to get in lots of veggies, fruit and protein, the options are endless to experiment with.

[bennymac]

Fruit seems overrated as a food group. Fiber and vitamins and antioxidants etc can be consumed via fresh veggies. I’m making sweeping generalizations here - including the fact that you can overdo it with veggies like potatoes. I’m no nutritional expert though - JMHO.

[Trackhead]

I totally agree. The only caveat I would add to this is trying various diets is a way to try and find something that works for you. I ate reasonably healthy and still over the years saw my weight creep upwards even as I tried to increase exercise and reduce calories (I have seen the recent stuff about how your metabolism doesn't change as you age and that feels WRONG to me and what I have experienced). Trying keto worked for me in a way nothing else did, it curbed my appetite and whatever else and I dropped 25 pounds. And I have been very low carb (definitely no longer keto) for the last 5 years and I have kept the weight off.

I don't think low carb or keto is some magic thing, just like no diet is some magic thing. The best diet is one you can stick to (so I guess it's MY magic thing). But how will you know which one you can stick to if you feel like you are struggling with diet but don't try anything new? My meals are whole foods, good foods, just not much carbs. But until I tried this diet, I was overeating in a way I seemingly couldn't control. Some people don't need a "diet" to get it right, maybe you are one of those lucky people. I wasn't.

Agree 100%.

[Dantheman]

I know DTM will disagree, but the odds of having prediabetes in your demographic is essentially zero.

Wait, what? Maybe if they get zero exercise, but that's not Peaches.

Fruit seems overrated as a food group. Fiber and vitamins and antioxidants etc can be consumed via fresh veggies. I’m making sweeping generalizations here - including the fact that you can overdo it with veggies like potatoes. I’m no nutritional expert though - JMHO.

FTS, fruit is delicious.

[bennymac]

[Trackhead]

Wait, what? Maybe if they get zero exercise, but that's not Peaches.


.

I know I’m just razzing…

[PeachesNCream]

Thanks guys. I tried this kind of on a whim and it made me feel extremely low energy, does my body need to adapt better to non-carb fuel or maybe low carb isn’t for me. Need to do more research/have a better plan next go around

Another reason to postpone this approach is Last week I started taking liver supplements for the same reason (don’t want to experiment with 2 approaches). Heard it’s great for energy and hormone levels. When I’m low energy from working out I feel depleted/foggy so thought it could be vitamin related and since liver is a great multivitamin with lots of vitamin B, thought it was worth a shot. If I don’t notice anything, it’s a good multi, nothing to lose. It’s only been a week but my energy levels seem noticeably higher and I get a big boost after taking them, I have to be careful not to take the full dose otherwise I get a head rush feeling. I wonder if it’s just because b vitamins give you energy or if I’m low in something that the liver supplement it meeting. With it only being a week, too soon to tell


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[Danno]

Thanks guys. I tried this kind of on a whim and it made me feel extremely low energy, does my body need to adapt better to non-carb fuel or maybe low carb isn’t for me. Need to do more research/have a better plan next go around

Going very low carb can work great, but it takes WAY more than a day or two to adapt. Again, google "fat adapted", that is where you need to get to, and it takes a while when your body has been burning carbs and only carbs for almost your whole life.

[californiagrown]

Thanks guys. I tried this kind of on a whim and it made me feel extremely low energy, does my body need to adapt better to non-carb fuel or maybe low carb isn’t for me. Need to do more research/have a better plan next go around

Another reason to postpone this approach is Last week I started taking liver supplements for the same reason (don’t want to experiment with 2 approaches). Heard it’s great for energy and hormone levels. When I’m low energy from working out I feel depleted/foggy so thought it could be vitamin related and since liver is a great multivitamin with lots of vitamin B, thought it was worth a shot. If I don’t notice anything, it’s a good multi, nothing to lose. It’s only been a week but my energy levels seem noticeably higher and I get a big boost after taking them, I have to be careful not to take the full dose otherwise I get a head rush feeling. I wonder if it’s just because b vitamins give you energy or if I’m low in something that the liver supplement it meeting. With it only being a week, too soon to tell


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Stick with something for a month, and then assess if the juice has been worth the squeeze (as a hard and fast guideline).

Another hard and fast guideline is that everybody should be taking 5-10grams of creatine per day. Everyone. Unless your doctor specifically says its a no-go for you. Cheap, objectively and noticeably effective, safe and the most studied supplement ever by a long shot.

[zion zig zag]

5-10g a day? I’ve seen 5 on the high end and I’ve been doing 3. What is the benefit of 10g?


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[Dantheman]

IIRC, Galpin recommended that big dudes could go up to 10 g/day. If you're under 200 lbs 5 g/day is probably plenty.

[zion zig zag]

Maybe I’ll quit being cheap and bump back up to 5g a day.


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[californiagrown]

5-10g a day? I’ve seen 5 on the high end and I’ve been doing 3. What is the benefit of 10g?


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Some folks absorb it better than others, some folks need more than others- just like everything when talking nutrition and dosages. 5g/day is the commonly accepted maintenance dosage and mono is cheap AF so as long as your stomach doesnt get upset, there isnt much downside to tossing back a little extra to see if you notice added benefit. I down my morning vitamins&stuff with half a water glass and then down a rounded dryscoop of mono with the remainder... and then toss a scoop back at night if i remember or feel like it. Creatine is something that builds up in your system for effect so you dont really have to be very finicky about consistency (to a point).

[Danno]

Anyone (Dan?) have a quick rundown of the documented benefits of taking 5g? And an affordable source?

[PeachesNCream]

Stick with something for a month, and then assess if the juice has been worth the squeeze (as a hard and fast guideline).

Another hard and fast guideline is that everybody should be taking 5-10grams of creatine per day. Everyone. Unless your doctor specifically says its a no-go for you. Cheap, objectively and noticeably effective, safe and the most studied supplement ever by a long shot.

I’ve heard of the benefits of creatine…muscle strength, brain health, injury prevention, but I haven’t heard of energy. Is that another benefit or are you just suggesting that as a general supplement that’s good to take?

Edit: looks like it can help with energy levels. I’ve got some mono sitting in my pantry right now


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[Mofro261]

Anyone (Dan?) have a quick rundown of the documented benefits of taking 5g? And an affordable source?

Looks to be a small to very small benefit which may or may not be mostly water retention?

By no means an exhuastive source, but here is a meta analysis of creatine supplementation and resistance training, from this year.

Nutrients. 2023 May; 15(9): 2116.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10180745/

The Effects of Creatine Supplementation Combined with Resistance Training on Regional Measures of Muscle Hypertrophy: A Systematic Review with Meta-Analysis

Abstract
The purpose of this paper was to carry out a systematic review with a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials that examined the combined effects of resistance training (RT) and creatine supplementation on regional changes in muscle mass, with direct imaging measures of hypertrophy. Moreover, we performed regression analyses to determine the potential influence of covariates. We included trials that had a duration of at least 6 weeks and examined the combined effects of creatine supplementation and RT on site-specific direct measures of hypertrophy (magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), computed tomography (CT), or ultrasound) in healthy adults. A total of 44 outcomes were analyzed across 10 studies that met the inclusion criteria. A univariate analysis of all the standardized outcomes showed a pooled mean estimate of 0.11 (95% Credible Interval (CrI): −0.02 to 0.25), providing evidence for a very small effect favoring creatine supplementation when combined with RT compared to RT and a placebo. Multivariate analyses found similar small benefits for the combination of creatine supplementation and RT on changes in the upper and lower body muscle thickness (0.10–0.16 cm). Analyses of the moderating effects indicated a small superior benefit for creatine supplementation in younger compared to older adults (0.17 (95%CrI: −0.09 to 0.45)). In conclusion, the results suggest that creatine supplementation combined with RT promotes a small increase in the direct measures of skeletal muscle hypertrophy in both the upper and lower body.

....

...from discussion
Our meta-analysis had several limitations that must be acknowledged. First, only one study investigated the hypertrophic effects of creatine supplementation in women only. Evidence indicates that men respond more favorably to supplementation than women for increases in lean mass [9]. Whether these sex-related differences are also specific to muscle hypertrophy remains to be determined. Second, only two studies involved resistance-trained individuals. Conceivably, those with RT experience may be able to train harder and thus derive a greater benefit from creatine supplementation. This hypothesis warrants further investigation. Third, there is considerable interindividual variability in response to creatine supplementation, with increases in muscle creatine concentrations ranging from 2 to 40 mmol/kg of dry mass [46]. Greenhaff et al. [47] reported that approximately 20 to 30% of subjects are “nonresponders”, which is defined by an intramuscular creatine content that increases by less than 10 mmol/kg of dry mass after a loading phase. The characteristics that may underpin this nonresponse to creatine supplementation include high initial muscle creatine levels, a low percentage of type II fibers, a low muscle fiber CSA, and a low fat-free mass [44]. Therefore, the modest effects of creatine supplementation on skeletal muscle hypertrophy may be at least partially due to a lack of delineation between responders and nonresponders within the studies included in the present analysis. Future longitudinal trials that correlate the changes in hypertrophy and intramuscular creatine content warrant more research.

YMMV- as it sounds like trial and error on whether or not supplementation will do anything at an individual level, and whether or not that aligns with your fitness goals, your current diet and nutritional intake, or pocket book restrictions.

low on energy... how is your sleep?

[PeachesNCream]

low on energy... how is your sleep?

Sleep is great. I fall asleep within 5 mins, sleep through the night and wake up around 6:30 with no alarm which ends up being 8-8.5 hours of sleep. I’ve used to have a whoop and it said my sleep quality was very high


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[Dantheman]

Anyone (Dan?) have a quick rundown of the documented benefits of taking 5g? And an affordable source?

https://podclips.com/c/creatine-mono...wel-supplement

Bulk Supplements

[californiagrown]

Anyone (Dan?) have a quick rundown of the documented benefits of taking 5g? And an affordable source?

It literally is the most studied supplement ever by orders of magnitude. If you have a specific use case for it, there has probably been a study done on that and is easily available on google. Every gym bro going for a masters in bio-related field since creatine first became commercially available in the early 90s has done a peer reviewed study on it.

Where to get it, honestly doesnt really matter. Its cheap AF, easy to make, and youd be hard pressed to find a shitty straight Creatine Monohydrate powder (no additives) on the market. Any other form besides monohydrate is a scam (it costs more without any additional benefit). i generally grab stuff from a few trusted suppliers like NOW, or Bulk Supplements (like DTM mentioned).

i personally am a super responder to it, and will go from 5reps at a weight to 8 reps of the same weight 1 week later after a creatine load. the strength/endurance gains are VERY noticeable for me, and even more noticeable when loading as opposed to the month long slow uptake method.

[fool]

Been having some energy issues and after talking with a friend, he thought I may be too carb dependent. I’m 29, active, eat healthy, and don’t have any medical conditions so shouldn’t be having so much issues with energy. I don’t think carbs are the devil but my energy seems pretty dependent on them which isn’t ideal. For example, I’ll eat a high carb meal, feel good for ~2 hours and then crash. If I eat a high protein or high fat meal I’ll feel sluggish and not get an energy boost. My friend said he had a couple of fit family members, but they loved sugar and were pre-diabetic and the doc was about to put them on meds. They moved to a low carb diet and they returned to normal levels. I don’t think I’m to that level but I do seem to be dependent on carbs for energy so thought it made sense to “train” your body to be less dependent on carbs. Zach bitter broke the 100 mile record with a low carb approach so seems like you can still do plenty of cardio based activities on low carb. My goal isn’t to go low carb every day but maybe Monday and Tuesday just to try to “teach” my body to not be reliant. Anyways, yesterday was the first day. I ate ~20 grams of carbs for the day. Felt so weird, couldn’t concentrate, felt a floaty feeling, woke up in the middle of the night feeling dizzy, low energy, spacey, honestly reminded me of fasting. I’m not looking for suggestions on solving the energy issues, but what do people think about my reaction to going low carb? Is this normal? Does my thinking of teaching your body to burn fats/proteins make sense? Today I’m going to stick with the low carb, but shoot for 50-70 carbs

Peaches, I don't know all of your post history but it seems like you've posted a few things about energy/health issues in the forum. Going low carb/keto is clearly an option but might be an aggressive option given the other challenges you've had. If you're active, young, and not pre-diabetic, why not try to find a more reasonable balance? Based on the cycling training thread I've moved towards high protein, med carb, and low fat and have been feeling good doing it. For active people, eating balanced, reasonably-portioned, high-quality, whole-grain carbs doesn't drag me down. And this is coming from someone who has done high fat / optimized fat metabolism before (I definitely had something like the keto flu for two weeks when I transitioned into it). (I'm also not sure if you can "teach" your body to be fat-adapted for only two days a week but I'll defer to Danno on that).

As this thread has discussed before, my main thought is don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough."

[The AD]

How much creatine can you get through a normal diet? I'm a bit of a supplement skeptic. If you can't realistically get 5 grams per day through diet alone, how can taking more really be beneficial?
[edit: and this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.]