Water.....

[MontuckyFried]

I've been starting to nerd out our home water use this year. From what I can guess, we use about 5000 gallons in-house a month. We use 35-40,000 gallons June-August each MONTH watering our lawns and garden. Kinda eye-popping, but our water bill is never more than $120 here in SLC so I never really cared or knew what we were doing. We have cut way back this summer on watering to see what's realistic to keep a semi-green lawn, and I'm figuring out a 2500 gallon rain water supply for our backyard. At first I thought this was shitload of water to have - now I realize it's not much.

Geez! That's a lot of water! You have an English style Secret Garden or something?

Just reviewed my latest bill. We only used 1,496 gallons. Family of 4. Bill was $50.

We've been under stage 3 drought restrictions for a while, but we run our sprinklers like it's "drought" times no matter what so the grass is kind of used to that. Pushes the roots deeper to search for water I think. Also mow as high and as little as possible.

We're pretty aware of water use since the bills can get steep fast if you use too much. Our local utility kind of punishes high water users since it puts you in a different, higher priced tier. They'll also send you rebates for xeriscaping efforts.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

[::: :::]

Geez! That's a lot of water! You have an English style Secret Garden or something?

Just reviewed my latest bill. We only used 1,496 gallons. Family of 4. Bill was $50.

We've been under stage 3 drought restrictions for a while, but we run our sprinklers like it's "drought" times no matter what so the grass is kind of used to that. Pushes the roots deeper to search for water I think. Also mow as high and as little as possible.

We're pretty aware of water use since the bills can get steep fast if you use too much. Our local utility kind of punishes high water users since it puts you in a different, higher priced tier. They'll also send you rebates for xeriscaping efforts.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

Sim story
We looked earlier this year; we were under 1,000gal/mo, and we started paying/managing my MIL's bills since FIL passed. That property (in socal) was using 5k gal/mo. At first, we were stunned and thought she had a leak. What is a retiree doing burning that much water each month? But we ended up talking to a neighbor & she had similar usage. It was that "efficient" drip system for the hobby gardening all around the house (they even have a synthetic lawn so they don't sprinkle a lawn).

[MontuckyFried]

I, for one, would be perfectly happy eating goat meat.

Same! I LOVE cabrito. Thankfully a popular staple near the border.

Your answer is talking about how we grow it (locally where it might be better suited), not what you eat (things that require excess water and energy), for the most part.

Actually those two aren't mutually exclusive. By buying locally sourced foods, they're typically grown/raised by small time farmers who are quite serious about producing things where they're not fighting mother nature at every step. For example, last cow we bought 1/4 of was some scraggly longhorn mutt. Not the most tender beef, but raised al naturale. Longhorns were brought in by the Spaniards due to their tolerance to heat, need for less water, and how they can survive just fine on the most nasty, scrubby land typical of the region. They're practically the goats of the cattle world. Just toss em out there and let em do their thing. Good choice for sustainable, local microfarming where it's dry.

Also a big fan of goat. Lots of great crops (on a small scale) that also do fine here with very little effort. Namely melons, okra, peppers of all kinds, and tons more.

I can see why this might be tough on a mass scale, BUT when the people we buy from can practically grow this stuff in their backyard, then that says a lot. They're not the ones draining Lake Mead, ya know?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

[dunfree]

Same! I LOVE cabrito. Thankfully a popular staple near the border.


Actually those two aren't mutually exclusive. By buying locally sourced foods, they're typically grown/raised by small time farmers who are quite serious about producing things where they're not fighting mother nature at every step. For example, last cow we bought 1/4 of was some scraggly longhorn mutt. Not the most tender beef, but raised al naturale. Longhorns were brought in by the Spaniards due to their tolerance to heat, need for less water, and how they can survive just fine on the most nasty, scrubby land typical of the region. They're practically the goats of the cattle world. Just toss em out there and let em do their thing. Good choice for sustainable, local microfarming where it's dry.

Also a big fan of goat. Lots of great crops (on a small scale) that also do fine here with very little effort. Namely melons, okra, peppers of all kinds, and tons more.

I can see why this might be tough on a mass scale, BUT when the people we buy from can practically grow this stuff in their backyard, then that says a lot. They're not the ones draining Lake Mead, ya know?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

its not tough on mass scale, it’s impossible on mass scale. Cattle are in the acres to many acres per head for land requirement. Worse the land, the less improved = water, lower the yield

[sb]

IOTWSWCD.

[MontuckyFried]

The big change has to be not eating meat. The amount of water required to turn plant protein into meat is enormous. I can't say that I practice what I preach. If almost everyone stops eating meat than I can keep eating it and not feel guilty.

I'd argue it'd be fine, but if more people simply switched to the right KINDS of meat or breeds for their regions.

Plus, with more of a trend by ranchers for regenerative grazing and such, perhaps there's some real hope that cattle can be a net good. It's what some in my family are doing. They've really brought our pastures back to life! Soil, plants, and overall ecosystem healthier than ever. Zero pesticide or fertilizer use.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/c...e-climate.html

Also, say no to mass produced meat. Feed lots are disgusting and sad. The part of the beef industry doing things that way ARE big contributors to greenhouse gases and excessive water usage. All without providing much in return to the environment.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

[muted reborn]

no doubt
but
guess how many are going to sign up to cut ag water use by any significant amount? it's shooting their livelihoods in the foot...
they might understand the issue and agree that efficiency & sustainability are in their interests, but very few will shut down or strangle their businesses to benefit the larger effort of water management

I don't fully grasp water rights, but I think they have no choice, their water is getting cut back drastically where not everyone can get their allotment. And many ARE agreeing to change their ways from what I've seen. What 'many' is is unkown though, to me at least. I wish I could find a recent article I read about a farm in Colorado selling their land and rights to the government and retiring. it was a huge win for the water district as it saved, for now, their asses.

Geez! That's a lot of water! You have an English style Secret Garden or something?

Just reviewed my latest bill. We only used 1,496 gallons. Family of 4. Bill was $50.

We've been under stage 3 drought restrictions for a while, but we run our sprinklers like it's "drought" times no matter what so the grass is kind of used to that. Pushes the roots deeper to search for water I think. Also mow as high and as little as possible.

We're pretty aware of water use since the bills can get steep fast if you use too much. Our local utility kind of punishes high water users since it puts you in a different, higher priced tier. They'll also send you rebates for xeriscaping efforts.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

Looks like the lowest we use is 3000 a month. Family of four. If 1500 is 'normal' I don't know what to say. Laundry and dishwasher is always running though.

As for the yard, we have about a 1/3 of an acre. Last month, the hottest on record or close to it - we used 20,000 gallons. Almost half of what we normally use but shit that seems like a lot for how many brown spots we have. Haven't even mowed the front in a month, it's growing so slowly and patchy.

August has been rainy thankfully. Grass is coming back with no watering yet.

[Mofro261]

It certainly getting to the point of Dire Straits.

[BCMtnHound]

Heh. North Americans are just too fat. I’d be happy to see we just eat 10% less and lessen the amount of spoilage, buy less consumer junk, consume a bit less energy. I’d say tighten our belts, but most of us are so fat we only fit in stretchy-waist track pants. But nope, the solution is always someone else’s responsibility.
We are stuffed, but wanting more, and wanting it now, especially before the other guy gets theirs. This has to change.

[AK47bp]

Where is all the water going?

Is it raining more elsewhere in the world?

Since the earth will always have the same amount of water in various forms, water can’t be created or destroyed, where did it go?

Any dentist / Hydrologists here?


I think we can rule out ice. Polar ice caps aren’t growing and glaciers are shrinking.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[ötzi]

The oceans seem to be full of the stuff. I guess I'd check there.

[skaredshtles]

I'd argue it'd be fine, but if more people simply switched to the right KINDS of meat or breeds for their regions.

Plus, with more of a trend by ranchers for regenerative grazing and such, perhaps there's some real hope that cattle can be a net good. It's what some in my family are doing. They've really brought our pastures back to life! Soil, plants, and overall ecosystem healthier than ever. Zero pesticide or fertilizer use.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/c...e-climate.html

Also, say no to mass produced meat. Feed lots are disgusting and sad. The part of the beef industry doing things that way ARE big contributors to greenhouse gases and excessive water usage. All without providing much in return to the environment.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

You have to VOTE to get these things done. Left to our own devices, none of this shit will happen.

[nickwm21]

So all these 2000 home, 55+ communities outside Phx/Scottsdale with multiple golf courses, pools on every lot, and zero solar panels weren’t a good idea?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[KQ]

no doubt
but
guess how many are going to sign up to cut ag water use by any significant amount? it's shooting their livelihoods in the foot...
they might understand the issue and agree that efficiency & sustainability are in their interests, but very few will shut down or strangle their businesses to benefit the larger effort of water management

Water right usage has to be reported to the state every year - it's all closely monitored and regulated so it's not really about "signing up."


Edit: State not Fed

[BCMtnHound]

Where is all the water going?

Is it raining more elsewhere in the world?

Since the earth will always have the same amount of water in various forms, water can’t be created or destroyed, where did it go?

Any dentist / Hydrologists here?


I think we can rule out ice. Polar ice caps aren’t growing and glaciers are shrinking.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Warmer air holds more water vapour, so more in the atmosphere. But more energy means it holds it longer, and releases it more violently.
With drought, soils become hydrophobic, water runs over the surface and races to the bottom (ocean eventually) without resting in the soil horizons.
Timing of precip is huge too. Many areas typically used to get most precip in winter as snow, so it would store for a period of time and infiltrate the groundwater table, making more available for longer. Winter snowpacks are becoming more variable, and generally more is falling as rain than snow.
And with the jet stream and other atmospheric conditions changing, precip isn’t falling where it used to either. Some places get an increase, others are experiencing a decrease from traditional patterns. The ecosystems that are experiencing this change take time to adapt, also impacting infiltration, transpiration, and evaporation norms.

[KQ]

I don't fully grasp water rights, but I think they have no choice, their water is getting cut back drastically where not everyone can get their allotment. And many ARE agreeing to change their ways from what I've seen. What 'many' is is unkown though, to me at least. I wish I could find a recent article I read about a farm in Colorado selling their land and rights to the government and retiring. it was a huge win for the water district as it saved, for now, their asses.

There are senior and junior water rights. Some rights come from wells some from surface water. It's all monitored and reported to the state (my pump has a meter on it). Junior and the first to get cut back/shut off but eventually everyone gets shut off if it's bad enough


Edit: Washington State dept of Ecology not "Fed"

[Danno]

Where is all the water going?

Is it raining more elsewhere in the world?

Since the earth will always have the same amount of water in various forms, water can’t be created or destroyed, where did it go?

Any dentist / Hydrologists here?


I think we can rule out ice. Polar ice caps aren’t growing and glaciers are shrinking.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

The oceans seem to be full of the stuff. I guess I'd check there.

Oceans are rising pretty rapidly, that seems to be a fact. And humans are mostly water, there seems to be an ever-growing number of us.

Plus, is the earth a fully closed system where water must stay water? Like, we have always had the exact same amount of water and always will? That's a huge assumption that someone sciencey should address, because I am not sure I buy it coming from someone who is asking about where all the water went?

[Danno]

Water right usage has to be reported to the feds every year - it's all closely monitored and regulated so it's not really about "signing up."

There are senior and junior water rights. Some rights come from wells some from surface water. It's all monitored and reported to the feds (my pump has a meter on it). Junior and the first to get cut back/shut off but eventually everyone gets shut off if it's bad enough

Water rights usage is not reported to the feds. There may be projects that have reporting requirements, and there may be states that track water usage carefully, but what you describe simply does not happen on the scale you are asserting. The fact that you have a meter on your well pump likely/surely means that your well pumping is reported to whatever agency required the installation of the meter. I wouldn't generalize past that.

[::: :::]

Water right usage has to be reported to the feds every year - it's all closely monitored and regulated so it's not really about "signing up."

that's the current system, and it isn't working if the goal is sustainability
my point isn't about lack of will or measurement of current use or even education on sustainable practices
it's about scale of use
no individual outfit, however well-meaning, has the elbow room to cut what's needed to put a meaningful dent in water sustainability and still maintain a business
and no business is going to self sacrifice so that the remainder of the industry can survive
sure, some will shut down as younger generation avoids carrying the torch of the family farming business

the scale of this issue requires regulation if it's to be addressed meaningfully at all
market forces and pure human self-preservation will never allow it to succeed

the amount of food we waste
the amount of water we use to produce that food
the energy we use to house ourselves & transport goods

these are immense forces - going vegetarian isn't putting a dent in it

deciding to produce less as a nation or deciding that regions needs to be self-sustaining isn't going to come from market innovation

[TBS]

The future has been here in the Klamath Basin for quite some time.
https://www.opb.org/article/2022/04/...-restrictions/

Farms that rely on irrigation from a depleted, federally managed lake on the California-Oregon border, along with a Native American tribe fighting to protect fragile salmon, will both receive extremely limited amounts of water this summer as a historic drought and record-low reservoir levels drag on in the U.S. West.

More than 1,000 farmers and ranchers who draw water from the Klamath River that flows from the Upper Klamath Lake to the Pacific Ocean will have access to roughly one-seventh the amount they could get in a wetter year, a federal agency announced Monday. Downstream salmon will receive about half the water they’d get if the reservoir was full.

It’s the third year in a row that severe drought has impacted farmers, fish and tribes in a region where there’s not enough water to satisfy competing demands. Last year, no water at all flowed through the Klamath Reclamation Project’s main irrigation canal, and thousands of downstream juvenile salmon died without reservoir releases to support the Klamath River’s health.

Start with a Bureau of Reclamation project to bend the environment to their will, and entice people to move there to use the water.

Then “Surprise!” The environment isn’t static and there isn’t enough water to go around.

It’s going to get worse. Maybe not Ancient Puebla cannibalism level worse, but in the end, most of that reclaimed land will go fallow for lack of water.

[KQ]

Water rights usage is not reported to the feds. There may be projects that have reporting requirements, and there may be states that track water usage carefully, but what you describe simply does not happen on the scale you are asserting. The fact that you have a meter on your well pump likely/surely means that your well pumping is reported to whatever agency required the installation of the meter. I wouldn't generalize past that.

Sorry - didn't mean to say "fed" I report to the Washington Dept of Ecology in Spokane every year - it's a form I have to fill out. My irrigation pump (the one I put at the river) has a meter on it that I take a reading from and report on the form I send to the Dept. of Ecology.

Not sure what you think isn't happening. Here in the basin we've had the water master come through and shut off usage and we've had people's rights diminished due to lack of use and people fined for overuse so there is monitoring.

[Core Shot]

Where is all the water going?

Is it raining more elsewhere in the world?

Since the earth will always have the same amount of water in various forms, water can’t be created or destroyed, where did it go?

Any dentist / Hydrologists here?


I think we can rule out ice. Polar ice caps aren’t growing and glaciers are shrinking.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Using a range of methods including model simulations developed by the Met Office Hadley Centre in the U.K., the researchers found that, while average rainfall is expected to increase at a median average rate of 2.32% per degree Celsius of warming worldwide, precipitation variability will increase between 4.85 and 5.70% per degree of warming across all regions.

It should be raining more with all this global warming.
Wtf

[Danno]

Sorry - didn't mean to say "fed" I report to the Washington Dept of Ecology in Spokane every year - it's a form I have to fill out. My irrigation pump (the one I put at the river) has a meter on it that I take a reading from and report on the form I send to the Dept. of Ecology.

Not sure what you think isn't happening. Here in the basin we've had the water master come through and shut off usage and we've had people's rights diminished due to lack of use and people fined for overuse so there is monitoring.

I never said there isn't monitoring, though it varies by state (and probably varies within each state). My state probably does a better job monitoring than any other, so I understand this well. Yes, we know who is using water, that's how the priority system operates, how can a "water master" or "ditch rider" or "water commissioner" determine who can divert without that? But the notion that it's all widely reported and tabulated and that info is at the fingertips of those making the big picture decisions across the west is what I responded to.

[total_immortal]

you have a meter on your well pump likely/surely means that your well pumping is reported to whatever agency required the installation of the meter.

It's also metered because almost every water right (except for some certain situations) has an associated amount of water allocated and you cannot go above that allocation without paying to offset the over allocation from a different water source. I previously worked in hydrology/water-rights in western CO and that shit gets complicated very quickly. If you had enough money it generally didn't matter whether your right was junior or senior as long as you could afford to pay for a chunk of water in Ruedi Reservoir or Dillon Reservoir to offset your overage.

[Bunion 2020]

Heh. North Americans are just too fat. I’d be happy to see we just eat 10% less and lessen the amount of spoilage, buy less consumer junk, consume a bit less energy. I’d say tighten our belts, but most of us are so fat we only fit in stretchy-waist track pants. But nope, the solution is always someone else’s responsibility.
We are stuffed, but wanting more, and wanting it now, especially before the other guy gets theirs. This has to change.

YES!

The big change has to be not eating as much meat.

FIFY