2 Helos Crash in Mineral Basin

[MakersTeleMark]

Well that's a rare sight.

It was incredible. Sideways the whole way through the valley then a rapid pull up to barely clear over china wall. I'll never forget it.

[old goat]

I know they have to train, my beef is the location in proximity to dozens of civilians who didn't sign up for dangerous training, not to mention a passenger tramway. Also just seems like very poor decision making if not flying with regards to all that. I'm not a pilot so my take deserves a grain of salt but still. Seems like they have those advanced systems on those helis. There was some mention in that instagram thread that some newer pilots can be overly reliant on them.



Yep, like I said, either way, checks out.

Fully agree, military training in view of the public is just plain bad policy to begin with. Western UT is basically one big MOA/Restricted area but they choose to go fly around and land in a big, crowded resort on a holiday weekend to give everyone a show? What kind of decision making is going on there?

The AF pararescue jumpers and helicopters were recently practicing extractions in Summit Meadow ("Lake Van Norden")--which is part of Royal Gorge XC. I was at the other part of RG which is very close and while we could hear the helicopters we never saw them above the trees except when they flew off after the exercise was over.

I'm not sure why they choose to use places like Mineral Basin and Royal Gorge--maybe it needs to be accessible by ground (and ski lift in the case of Mineral Basin). I don't see what the problem is. If you live in a city between the traffic choppers and the cop choppers there are helicopters close overhead in crowded places all the time. Pretty annoying actually.

Between Donner Summit and the Wasatch with all this training--maybe these are places that look like Ukraine in the winter.

[Name Redacted]

I don't see what the problem is. If you live in a city between the traffic choppers and the cop choppers there are helicopters close overhead in crowded places all the time. Pretty annoying actually. .

So you don't see the difference between a traffic copter flying around at a safe altitude and two Blackhawks landing simultaneously next to each other in a field of powder right next to a chairlift? That IS annoying.

[old goat]

Helicopters land at Olympic Valley frequently. And at hospitals in the middle of crowded cities.
The area where the helicopters "landed" appeared to be a reasonable distance from the lift and any ski tracks--was the area closed off or OB?
Obviously the 2 helicopters screwed up--not accounting for the loss of visibility in the prop wash, being in the wrong formation etc, but that doesn't justify a blanket condemnation of military exercises near a ski area, assuming there was a reason to do it there.

Try not to get annoyed when someone disagrees with you.

[Name Redacted]

Helicopters land at Olympic Valley frequently. And at hospitals in the middle of crowded cities.
The area where the helicopters "landed" appeared to be a reasonable distance from the lift and any ski tracks--was the area closed off or OB?
Obviously the 2 helicopters screwed up--not accounting for the loss of visibility in the prop wash, being in the wrong formation etc, but that doesn't justify a blanket condemnation of military exercises near a ski area, assuming there was a reason to do it there.

Try not to get annoyed when someone disagrees with you.

Landing at a heli pad at a hospital is a shitload different than what those guys were doing. I shouldn't have to explain that. Civilian helicopters rarely do what these guys were doing, the way they were doing it. There's quite a few reasons for that, both legal, operational, and practical with regards to safety of people in the immediate area, civilian and military.

Not a blanket condemnation of military exercises at all. But under the circumstances of weather, terrain, altitude, new snow, combined with being next to a busy ski area? I believe that it was a poor choice to train in that location that day. I'm sure that's all part of the discussion they are having back at the base right now. It is rarely just one factor that leads to an accident.

[boardtodeath]

Helicopters land at Olympic Valley frequently. And at hospitals in the middle of crowded cities.
The area where the helicopters "landed" appeared to be a reasonable distance from the lift and any ski tracks--was the area closed off or OB?
Obviously the 2 helicopters screwed up--not accounting for the loss of visibility in the prop wash, being in the wrong formation etc, but that doesn't justify a blanket condemnation of military exercises near a ski area, assuming there was a reason to do it there.

Try not to get annoyed when someone disagrees with you.

Do you not see the difference in these two situations?

-a helicopter pilot who flies every day as their career landing at a hospital, or even a heliskiing pilot who flies into the backcountry as their primary career

-a national guard pilot who flies MAYBE a total of 10 days a month, often less, and whose primary job is definitely NOT flying helicopters in dicey conditions

Because I'd say that not recognizing that massive difference is in fact quite annoying.

To answer more of your questions: the area they land is right next to the backcountry gate. There are routinely snowbird mountain guide cats right there, snowbird also leads snowmobile tours from literally directly where the helis crashed, and if you ski the far bookends/cliffs you are going to be hiking back to the lift directly past where they crashed. That they did not shower the lift maze with debris is purely luck, and likewise for the fact that there were not any returning skiers hiking back in the area. In fact the rotor that ejected towards the bookends went directly over the return cat track.

[farmguy]

Imagine that rotor blade flying off towards a lift, shit could have been 1000 times worse very quickly.

[Creeker]

The AF pararescue jumpers and helicopters were recently practicing extractions in Summit Meadow ("Lake Van Norden")--which is part of Royal Gorge XC. I was at the other part of RG which is very close and while we could hear the helicopters we never saw them above the trees except when they flew off after the exercise was over.

I'm not sure why they choose to use places like Mineral Basin and Royal Gorge--maybe it needs to be accessible by ground (and ski lift in the case of Mineral Basin). I don't see what the problem is. If you live in a city between the traffic choppers and the cop choppers there are helicopters close overhead in crowded places all the time. Pretty annoying actually.

Between Donner Summit and the Wasatch with all this training--maybe these are places that look like Ukraine in the winter.

Were the PJ's from Moffat Field training in late December/Early January? Grabbed lunch at Nugget in Davis and saw a few of the trucks and containers in the parking lot...likely grabbing lunch at Guadalajara.

[Cono Este]

I hope someone was stealing that pow during all that distraction.


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[old goat]

But under the circumstances of weather, terrain, altitude, new snow, combined with being next to a busy ski area? I believe that it was a poor choice to train in that location that day.

Agreed

Were the PJ's from Moffat Field training in late December/Early January? Grabbed lunch at Nugget in Davis and saw a few of the trucks and containers in the parking lot...likely grabbing lunch at Guadalajara.

I don't know.

[powdork]

Do you not see the difference in these two situations?

-a helicopter pilot who flies every day as their career landing at a hospital, or even a heliskiing pilot who flies into the backcountry as their primary career

-a national guard pilot who flies MAYBE a total of 10 days a month, often less, and whose primary job is definitely NOT flying helicopters in dicey conditions

Because I'd say that not recognizing that massive difference is in fact quite annoying.

Also in none of the cases you mentioned do you have two helicopters landing in formation (or cluster, rather)

[DeepHelmet]

Do you not see the difference in these two situations?

-a helicopter pilot who flies every day as their career landing at a hospital, or even a heliskiing pilot who flies into the backcountry as their primary career

-a national guard pilot who flies MAYBE a total of 10 days a month, often less, and whose primary job is definitely NOT flying helicopters in dicey conditions

Because I'd say that not recognizing that massive difference is in fact quite annoying.

To answer more of your questions: the area they land is right next to the backcountry gate. There are routinely snowbird mountain guide cats right there, snowbird also leads snowmobile tours from literally directly where the helis crashed, and if you ski the far bookends/cliffs you are going to be hiking back to the lift directly past where they crashed. That they did not shower the lift maze with debris is purely luck, and likewise for the fact that there were not any returning skiers hiking back in the area. In fact the rotor that ejected towards the bookends went directly over the return cat track.

The Ntnl Guard pilots' flight time varies greatly. Of note, most of them are pilots in the civilian world as well. Several fly for the airlines and a few are Lifeflight/Airmed pilots. One of them is a helo pilot for a local news station. They spend a lot of time in the air, much more than just their guard duties. That's what their former CSM told me anyway. I'm not making judgement either way, but let's try not to paint these guys with the broad "part time amateur" brush. I have a good friend who was on the ground waiting to get picked up by one of those helos. He's got many years of military experience under his belt and speaks highly of the pilots they use for training. He's also amazed he's still with us and there weren't any severe injuries.

[telefreewasatch]

Hindsight is a wonderful gift.
I must admit to being mystified when Buster and I saw them coming and going a few weeks ago so close to the lift.
On account of noise and rotor wash, not a possible accident.

boardtodeath:
Snowbird has not done any cat skiing this year.
Snowmobile tours are no more.
The backcountry gate and hiking return from the Sundays are not really any closer to that LZ than the lift line maze.
beaterdit: the tram is almost a mile away.

Snowbird as their host is complicit to the LZ's proximity to their lift.
They made that LZ flat with Snowcats and could have made the LZ much further east.
Had the troops coming down the lifts walk a bit down canyon on a groomer.
Everyone is saying that the LZ is on FS land adjacent to the bird. Without surveying I think that it is on Snowbird's private property, though very close to a wedge of FS land. If it is on FS land then it is in Snowbird's permit area.

Snowbird has hosted military training for about 25 years now, starting with Navy seals.
I think it's an awesome thing for a private entity to support our armed forces with training in a mountainous environment. I was proud to help them with avy stuff, etc.

Lucky to have dodged a bullet there. Or rotor...

[waxman]

As a canuck who never see our military ever (maybe a parade somewhere) I always liked/enjoyed seeing the military around Snowbird (or anywhere else really)
this incident sucks for sure, hopefully the powers that be learn from it and move on

[ptavv]

One of the main reasons that military training occurs near populated / occupied / recreational areas is so that if / when something goes wrong they are nearer rescue and medical assets than if they were out in some unpopulated area.

Especially for National Guard units who are unlikely to have all the corresponding assets that would be needed in the event of really bad training accidents. It's one thing to spin up a rescue from a huge base like Fort Carson or Joint Base Lewis McChord into mountains (especially if the training planner was good and communicated with the rescue assets ahead of time). For some Utah NG pilots out of Camp Williams? I bet they can't even get the PJs at Hill AFB on the phone without a ton of work.

[MTT]

Let us know when/how they get those choppers out of there.

That’s what I am curious about

[Meadow Skipper]

Let us know when/how they get those choppers out of there.

That’s what I am curious about

I read somewhere they used a heavy lift helicopter to sling them out. I’ve seen that before - hook and go.

[altacoup]

The choppers are still there. At elevation a Chinook chopper isn’t rated to lift them out. They might be there for a while. I believe national guard is pulling 24/7 guard duty also.


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[John_B]

After the Pave Hawk crashed on Mt Hood in 2002 I believe they were able to recover it using a Chinook. That was probably at about 10k. I'm not familiar with Mineral Basin area, what elevation is that?

I'm sure there are all sorts of heli specs I'm unfamiliar with but I'm curious to hear how they go about the recovery.

[Meadow Skipper]

I might have my head up my ass about the extrication. Gonna look for a reference.

Does the UT NG have Sikorsky S-64 Skycranes?

Edit: https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/2/...national-guard

”Once the aircraft can be moved, the UH-60 Black Hawks will be sling-loaded out one at a time by a CH-47 Chinook at a safe distance on a safe path to an area where they can be loaded for ground transportation,” the statement said.

The process to remove the helicopters could take days to a few weeks, according to Thomas.

[ptavv]

The choppers are still there. At elevation a Chinook chopper isn’t rated to lift them out. They might be there for a while. I believe national guard is pulling 24/7 guard duty also.

Not true.

UH-60s weigh 13,650 lbs (less when some parts are missing!). CH-47s have a lift capacity of 26,000 lbs at sea level and at 5,000 feet it's 22,000 lbs.

The block 2 CH-47s sling load JLTVs that weigh 22,500 lbs around Afghanistan.

After the Pave Hawk crashed on Mt Hood in 2002 I believe they were able to recover it using a Chinook. That was probably at about 10k. I'm not familiar with Mineral Basin area, what elevation is that?

I'm sure there are all sorts of heli specs I'm unfamiliar with but I'm curious to hear how they go about the recovery.

Yep. The HH-60 crashed at 10,900 ft and they sling loaded it out with a CH-47.

[Meadow Skipper]

^ Good shit. Thx.

[Buzzworthy]

Airspace now closed over the area.

https://twitter.com/slcscanner/statu...660573696?s=21

[fool]

The Ntnl Guard pilots' flight time varies greatly. Of note, most of them are pilots in the civilian world as well. Several fly for the airlines and a few are Lifeflight/Airmed pilots. One of them is a helo pilot for a local news station. They spend a lot of time in the air, much more than just their guard duties. That's what their former CSM told me anyway. I'm not making judgement either way, but let's try not to paint these guys with the broad "part time amateur" brush. I have a good friend who was on the ground waiting to get picked up by one of those helos. He's got many years of military experience under his belt and speaks highly of the pilots they use for training. He's also amazed he's still with us and there weren't any severe injuries.

Agreed, and some of could have been active duty for years and racked up a bunch of flight hours. It's really hard to know from the outside.

Seems like they should have just aborted and gone around prepared for an instrument landing when they lost visual. Landing one at a time with fresh snow also just seems like common sense but what do I know.

My hunch is that they thought the snow might be light enough to blow the light/blowable snow away before landing. This is possible with snow and dust, depending on a lot of factors. Perhaps a go around would have made sense but you can’t really do an instrument landing there (well, I imagine they don’t have instrument equipment there), but they could have at least done a “go around” and figure out what to do next, which might be to go back to an airport, etc.

I’ve got 20 years of training military pilots to fly in mountainous and heavy snow conditions. There are so many red flags on this formation approach that sent the hairs on my next standing on edge. You never make an approach to a valley in white out conditions with the #2 in the leaders six. The ground speed is too slow on final approach. You pick a marker and drive the helicopter down onto the marker (usually positioning by your boot in the chin window). The ground speed must not come below around 10kts other wise the snow cloud catches up with you and envelopes the cockpit. That’s when you lose all references and go into whiteout. Massive disorientation occurs and it’s impossible to maintain (manually) a hover. Emergency reaction in White Out are transfer to instruments, pull in power and go vertical to get out of the snow cloud. Which is why as the #2 you never sit in the leaders 6.

Agreed, and yes, way too slow, but I thought the #2 was close to the 4 o clock? The 10kts is not a bad reference but the speed necessary to avoid whiteout is is based on the snow and wind characteristics (light, heavy, etc.), so perhaps it was worse than expected. (And depending on what they did beforehand, is more reason for a conservative, single UH60 approach on the first go.)

Not true.

UH-60s weigh 13,650 lbs (less when some parts are missing!). CH-47s have a lift capacity of 26,000 lbs at sea level and at 5,000 feet it's 22,000 lbs.

The block 2 CH-47s sling load JLTVs that weigh 22,500 lbs around Afghanistan.

Yep. The HH-60 crashed at 10,900 ft and they sling loaded it out with a CH-47.

And fun fact - which it sounds like ptavv might be familiar with - when 47s can’t lift it, the Marines sometimes can lift with their CH-53 Sea Stallions. It's a beast.

The CH-53E was designed for transporting up to 55 troops with the installation of seats along the cabin center line or 30,000 lb (13,610 kg) of cargo, and can carry externally slung loads up to 36,000 lb (16,330 kg).

[fool]

Last week at the top of chair 5 at Vail I witnessed (as did many others) a C-7 fly completely sideways at least 500 ft. BELOW me through the back bowls. I could easily see into the cockpit. It was right there below me and was one of the most amazing sights of aviation I have ever witnessed.

Any pics, MTM? Fascinating.