To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[pureantigravity]

You bring a teaspoon to the knife fight.

It isn't the size of the spoon that matters. It is what you stir with it.

SpongeBob is quite good with spoons.

Squidward then devises another plan, where SpongeBob and Patrick distract the worm while he retrieves the mattress. The worm becomes obedient to SpongeBob when he sees the wooden spoon he is holding up. SpongeBob unintentionally throws it towards Squidward for the worm to fetch, and Squidward is subsequently attacked by the worm once again.

[mtuhockey33]

Who needs animal testing? There are plenty of people who want to be injected right now, no matter the consequences. They are our test animals.

Brings new meaning to the word "sheeple"

while I fully agree with this, it seems as if those “sheeple” are going to cause everyone else to have “vaccination-proof” to travel, get a job, go to a concert (Ticketmaster is already trying to have a proof of Covid vaccination before you can buy/go to concerts), etc...

I understand the need/want for high risk/elderly people to get the vaccine - if it’s everything they’re promising and if you get the vaccine, you shouldn’t get the virus. So if I don’t vaccinate myself, you shouldn’t be at risk; right? Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Get the jab, rube

[Bunion 2020]

Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.

And that kind of logic is why the vaccination effort is doomed to fail.

[mtuhockey33]

And that kind of logic is why the vaccination effort is doomed to fail.

care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?

[Dromond]

Nurses, doctors and PAs are humans who are susceptible to false internet rumors like anyone else. Stop wasting everyone's time with that shit. My wife works in a hospital and we are counting the days until she can get the vaccine to improve here chances of not being the 293,638th US fatality.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-benefits.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ctive-and-safe

[MiddleOfNight]

And that kind of logic is why the vaccination effort is doomed to fail.

Wondering if there are varying degrees of success to the effort?
I guess long-term immunization is a question mark .. but if Babushka gets vaccine, I get it, and Bunion gets it, but mtu and PG don't .. at what point does the effort become futile?

[Mofro261]

care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?

The risks from the virus far exceed your pansy ass fears of getting poked with a needle.

[yeahman]

I had to dig out my measles vaccine record for a job application the other day. I was looking through all my other vaccines. My mom gave me these records when I left home. She was a nurse for 35 years with a keen medical sense, and obviously a big believer in vaccines. Anyway I found it interesting that I have been vaccinated for nine diseases, not including yearly flu shot.

Red Measles
German Measles
Mumps
Rubeola
Rubella
Polio
Diphtheria
Tetanus (rabies?)
Shingles

[DJSapp]

care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?

Risk v. Reward:

Current known risks of COVID:
- Massively contagious
- Contagious even if you're not showing symptoms
- Old people die from this
- Hospitals are completely overwhelmed and will be forced to truly triage incoming cases covid or otherwise that they can't deal with (i.e. rationing care and choosing who dies in the waiting room)
- Businesses and people suffer economically to the point of suicide
- Travel restricted
- Schools shut down
- Potential long term health impacts to heart and lungs
- Potential massive saddling of medical debt if you are hospitalized

Current known risks of the vax:
- Side effects of soreness at the injection site, fatigue, and fever are common but pass quickly

Current unknown risks of the vax:
- Long term efficacy (i.e. need booster shots?)
- Can the vaccinated still spread it?
- Long term side effects (granted, most vax side effects appear quickly)
- 5G networks will be replaced with 6G in 2027

Current known benefit of the vax:
- Immune response is orders of magnitude higher than those that recovered from COVID (i.e. less likely to get reinfected)

[Bunion 2020]

care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?

A simple observation of the human condition is all. Google Herd Immunity.

We (being everyone) get there by burn rate or vaccination or a combination of the two. No other choice.

I am not critical of you for your personal decision BTW, just stating a fact.

[skaredshtles]

Risk v. Reward:

Current known risks of COVID:
- Massively contagious
- Contagious even if you're not showing symptoms
- Old people die from this
- Hospitals are completely overwhelmed and will be forced to truly triage incoming cases covid or otherwise that they can't deal with (i.e. rationing care and choosing who dies in the waiting room)
- Businesses and people suffer economically to the point of suicide
- Travel restricted
- Schools shut down
- Potential long term health impacts to heart and lungs
- Potential massive saddling of medical debt if you are hospitalized

Current known risks of the vax:
- Side effects of soreness at the injection site, fatigue, and fever are common but pass quickly

Current unknown risks of the vax:
- Long term efficacy (i.e. need booster shots?)
- Can the vaccinated still spread it?
- Long term side effects (granted, most vax side effects appear quickly)
- 5G networks will be replaced with 6G in 2027

Current known benefit of the vax:
- Immune response is orders of magnitude higher than those that recovered from COVID (i.e. less likely to get reinfected)

[old goat]

while I fully agree with this, it seems as if those “sheeple” are going to cause everyone else to have “vaccination-proof” to travel, get a job, go to a concert (Ticketmaster is already trying to have a proof of Covid vaccination before you can buy/go to concerts), etc...

I understand the need/want for high risk/elderly people to get the vaccine - if it’s everything they’re promising and if you get the vaccine, you shouldn’t get the virus. So if I don’t vaccinate myself, you shouldn’t be at risk; right? Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.

Because the vaccine will not be 100% effective. There will be people with weakened immune systems--cancer chemo for example--and others who for one reason or another won't develop effective immunity. Those people will be counting on everyone else being vaccinated for their own safety. (This assumes that being vaccinated protects people from being asymptomatic transmitters--not known yet.)

Initially, when many people have not had a chance to be vaccinated there may be requirements for proof of vaccination. Almost certainly for international travel. Beyond that it will depend on what the case rate is once everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been. While vaccine is in short supply it makes no sense to force some people to get it while others who want it can't get it.

It will be interesting to see if businesses require employees to be vaccinated, especially while vaccine is in short supply--get ready to see your 20 something barista replaced by a 60 year old obese diabetic. I'm guessing not.

It's all about living in society. It may be news to you, but we do have obligations to our fellow human beings. We accept those obligations when we partake of the benefits of society--drive on the public roads, shop in stores, expect someone to save our house when it catches on fire. If you decide to live off the grid and grow your own food and leave the rest of us alone then you can do whatever the fuck you want. I know these are old fashioned ideas and are rapidly fading from American consciousness--which is why we have cornered the world market on coronavirus-- but they aren't quite dead yet.

[wooley12]

care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?

Facts and data do not work with the Covidiot brain. I'm sorry about your affliction caused by your addiction.

So, take a lap.

[pureantigravity]

Because the vaccine will not be 100% effective. There will be people with weakened immune systems--cancer chemo for example--and others who for one reason or another won't develop effective immunity. Those people will be counting on everyone else being vaccinated for their own safety. (This assumes that being vaccinated protects people from being asymptomatic transmitters--not known yet.)

Initially, when many people have not had a chance to be vaccinated there may be requirements for proof of vaccination. Almost certainly for international travel. Beyond that it will depend on what the case rate is once everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been. While vaccine is in short supply it makes no sense to force some people to get it while others who want it can't get it.

It will be interesting to see if businesses require employees to be vaccinated, especially while vaccine is in short supply--get ready to see your 20 something barista replaced by a 60 year old obese diabetic. I'm guessing not.

It's all about living in society. It may be news to you, but we do have obligations to our fellow human beings. We accept those obligations when we partake of the benefits of society--drive on the public roads, shop in stores, expect someone to save our house when it catches on fire. If you decide to live off the grid and grow your own food and leave the rest of us alone then you can do whatever the fuck you want. I know these are old fashioned ideas and are rapidly fading from American consciousness--which is why we have cornered the world market on coronavirus-- but they aren't quite dead yet.

> This assumes that being vaccinated protects people from being asymptomatic transmitters--not known yet.)

I'm not sure how they don't know that yet. Are you saying that of the 10s of thousands of study patients, no one from the vaccinated camp got tested for this?
I find that hard to believe.
What I think is more likely is that the bodies response to the virus kicks into production, producing a small lag time between being infected, becoming contagious and being on-the-mend whilst simultaneously being less contagious.
Purely a speculative guess and probably wrong, but plausible.
They surely know this and just are not saying because of the extra layer of complexity it adds to vax approvals and public acceptance.

[GoldMember]

Imagine if we had a high level of anti-vaxxers when the polio vaccine was introduced. My sister had polio and it's left her partially disabled for life. She spent a number of years in leg braces with a lot of time spent at the Shriner's Hospital for care. It's really impacted her life in many ways that she really has never recovered from, not just physically but emotionally. She's a bit of a wreck and always has been.

My parents never batted an eyelash as there was no way they wanted me to go through what she went through. I still have the scar at the vaccination site as all my friends had, too. In places where the vaccines weren't widely available, polio remains to this day. Africa just was declared free of the wild polio virus and Afghanistan and Pakistan still, to this day, have the presence of the virus. In the US, the last of domestically introduced polio was in 1979 and the last of internationally introduced polio was in 1993, nearly forty years after becoming available. What has essentially eradicated it was the vaccine and the development of herd immunity.

The best means for eradicating this corona virus is through a thorough and broad-based vaccination protocol. If we want to eradicate it from our society and world, we need to develop herd immunity, just as we have with polio. Shining it on because you're young and virile only postpones the reopening of our society and our lives. We are currently just existing, waiting for this to be brought under control so we can continue our lives the way we want to. Excuses for not getting this vaccine are hollow. Get the fucking shot when you can. The rest of our society is on hold until we can achieve the goal of 70-80% vaccinated. Don't be that guy.

[The AD]

Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.

There is zero evidence so far that the vaccine has any risk--much less a higher risk--than actually getting COVID-19. I understand there are known risks and unknown risks, but don't act like there is actually data now indicating the vaccine could harm you.

[pureantigravity]

^^^
> Imagine if we had a high level of anti-vaxxers when the polio vaccine was introduced.

How long had the Polio virus been circulating before a vax was developed?
How widespread was testing?
What resistance was there to the vaccine?
How was that resistance overcome?

“A calculated risk”: the Salk polio vaccine field trials of 1954
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1114166/

I'm just reading that right now. It seems we have a lot to learn from past wars on disease and what the ingredients were to public confidence and uptake.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

> This assumes that being vaccinated protects people from being asymptomatic transmitters--not known yet.)

I'm not sure how they don't know that yet. Are you saying that of the 10s of thousands of study patients, no one from the vaccinated camp got tested for this?
I find that hard to believe.
What I think is more likely is that the bodies response to the virus kicks into production, producing a small lag time between being infected, becoming contagious and being on-the-mend whilst simultaneously being less contagious.
Purely a speculative guess and probably wrong, but plausible.
They surely know this and just are not saying because of the extra layer of complexity it adds to vax approvals and public acceptance.

I’m glad we have you to speculate here about things you have a very limited understanding of. Why do we need people that have actual expertise in immunology and vaccine development when we have you.

Maybe when Trump overturns the election he can appoint you to head the CDC


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[GoldMember]

^^ (Intended for PG)

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...d-out-a-killer

How long had the Polio virus been circulating before a vax was developed? - About 60 years


How widespread was testing? - Don't know


What resistance was there to the vaccine? - Some for the first couple of years, mostly due to a botched batch of vaccine that caused some deaths. It's a dead-virus vaccine and some of the virus in that batch wasn't dead and actually introduced polio to some of the receivers of the vaccine. The problem was identified and fixed. My understanding of this virus is that it's different in that it's a RMA messenger and of a different, and safer, methodology than dead-virus vaccines.


How was that resistance overcome? - By the pictures of crippled and dead children. Polio was/is an insidious disease. My parents, having lived through it with my sister, were highly compelled to get me vaccinated when I could be. The risks of vaccination are very low, compared to the risks of getting the disease. People also tended to be trusting of those who actually were scientists and understood the enemy and how to fight it, not so much armchair epidemiologists who would question things they didn't understand.


Bottom Line: We need to eradicate Covid 19. In order to do that effectively, we need to develop herd immunity. Get the fucking shot.

[pureantigravity]

^^ (Intended for PG)

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...d-out-a-killer

How long had the Polio virus been circulating before a vax was developed? - About 60 years


How widespread was testing? - Don't know


What resistance was there to the vaccine? - Some for the first couple of years, mostly due to a botched batch of vaccine that caused some deaths. It's a dead-virus vaccine and some of the virus in that batch wasn't dead and actually introduced polio to some of the receivers of the vaccine. The problem was identified and fixed. My understanding of this virus is that it's different in that it's a RMA messenger and of a different, and safer, methodology than dead-virus vaccines.


How was that resistance overcome? - By the pictures of crippled and dead children. Polio was/is an insidious disease. My parents, having lived through it with my sister, were highly compelled to get me vaccinated when I could be. The risks of vaccination are very low, compared to the risks of getting the disease. People also tended to be trusting of those who actually were scientists and understood the enemy and how to fight it, not so much armchair epidemiologists who would question things they didn't understand.


Bottom Line: We need to eradicate Covid 19. In order to do that effectively, we need to develop herd immunity. Get the fucking shot.

“A calculated risk”: the Salk polio vaccine field trials of 1954
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1114166/

> How widespread was testing? - Don't know
It was massive. The current covid vaccine trials pale by a factor of ten. We are talking >= 1.6 million participants.

polio vaccine field trials of 1954, sponsored by the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis (March of Dimes), are among the largest and most publicised clinical trials ever undertaken. Across the United States, 623 972 schoolchildren were injected with vaccine or placebo, and more than a million others participated as “observed” controls. The results, announced in 1955, showed good statistical evidence that Jonas Salk’s killed virus preparation was 80-90% effective in preventing paralytic poliomyelitis. ....

> What resistance was there to the vaccine? - Some for the first couple of years, mostly due to a botched batch of vaccine that caused some deaths. ...
Yes. But also staunch resistance and criticism from within the scientific community.

Several of the senior virologists on the Immunization Committee, notably the Nobel laureate John Enders of Harvard and Albert Sabin of Cincinnati ... questioned the ....

>How was that resistance overcome? - By the pictures of crippled and dead children. Polio was/is an insidious disease.
Yes, I had a good friend pass away years ago (Actually 2 friends - the first died of old age, the second from brain cancer). #1 suffered a life of partial paralysis from the waist down. He never let it stop him though - he achieved great things. I am indebted to his kindness and friendship. #2 also a memorable cartoon artist, a very kinds and welcoming and generous human. His funeral was an epic celebration.

Thirty six health departments, representing a large segment of public opinion and the rank and file of the medical profession, were committed to that plan and their participation was necessary to the field trial. If the Salk vaccine trials were to succeed, it was essential that they be a great national event, enlisting volunteers, doctors, and parents in one united effort that represented the culmination of 15 years of work and faith. Given the climate of scientific doubt that surrounded the killed-virus vaccine, it was essential that the field trials offer public, as well as scientific, validation of its effectiveness.

The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis had tried to reconcile its scientific and political problems by working through the state health officers, but this group—each official facing the conflicting demands of professional training and public constituency—was itself divided.

All sides had to be brought together to make it happen.
I think that's what we need today. It may take some patience on all sides, to address concerns and ensure safety over politics (and possibly corporate profits).
You lose a lot of your audience when you "Get the f$%%^ shot!".
It hurts the cause.

[stuckathuntermtn]

How about STFU and get the shot?
No other argument.

[The AD]

All sides had to be brought together to make it happen.
I think that's what we need today. It may take some patience on all sides, to address concerns and ensure safety over politics (and possibly corporate profits).
You lose a lot of your audience when you "Get the f$%%^ shot!".
It hurts the cause.

But we're talking about two very different viruses. Polio is spread (usually) through fecal contamination. Coronavirus is spread through the air. You can effectively control polio with good hygiene practices and good public sanitization (water and food supplies). We know there are some things that can slow the spread of COVID-19, but a vaccine is really the only way (hopefully) to stop it in its tracks. Therefore speed is of the essence. I don't think there was really that kind of pressure to develop a polio vaccine quickly. During the polio "epidemic" of 1952 only 60,000 people were infected and around 3,000 died in the U.S. That's a vastly different scale.

[uglymoney]

Just an FYI I think the number of Mericans who will actually get vaccinated is going to be much lower than people think. Maybe flu shot levels. The front line restaurant workers I deal with as I go about my job delivering food while literally holding my breath behind a home made cloth mask/furnace hepa filter combo aren't at all excited about getting the shot. Either they aren't getting it or they plan to wait and see.

As I've said before...sign me the fuck up. Also, my mom was a public health nurse for a while, later in her career and most of my life a Professor of Nursing at Iowa. Getting vaccines has never been an option for me, nor will it ever be. I had my flu shot in August and will have the Covid shot at first light.

During the 2018-2019 season, 62.6% of children between six months and 17 years got a flu shot. Among adults, 45.3% of people got vaccines. The vaccination rate varied by race and ethnicity, with 51% of non-Hispanic white people getting the vaccine compared with 44.7% of the non-Hispanic Black population.Sep 10, 2020 Source CDC 2020

[GoldMember]

All sides had to be brought together to make it happen.
I think that's what we need today. It may take some patience on all sides, to address concerns and ensure safety over politics (and possibly corporate profits).
You lose a lot of your audience when you "Get the f$%%^ shot!".
It hurts the cause.

Patience on all sides gets lost when the anti-vaxxer crowd is building through misinformation social media sites. That movement is a threat to the safety of all and is without scientific merit. As for me, i lose my patience with these conspiratorial theorists who proclaim vaccinations are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent. Sorry if you think I'm losing my audience, I don't consider myself having an audience. I just want this eradicated and want my life back. The backsliders who follow that other crap are lessening my opportunities to have that happen.