Jackson Kayak "Hero" / beginner gear - any thoughts?

[fool]

http://jacksonkayak.com/hero-series/

I just moved up north and am slowly getting into paddling with some friends of friends. Anyway, a friend found a guy selling a Jackson Kayak Hero for $450, brand new, never used (MSRP is $1200 and it looks like they sell around that price). So far it looks like an amazing deal, but I was looking for some thoughts on the kayak. Anyone know anything about them? Good/bad?

And for fun here's the promo video: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSmOJprznmc"]YouTube- Jackson Kayak Hero Series[/nomedia] and playboating video: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiIZzc1gtA&feature=related"]YouTube- Playboating the Hero[/nomedia]

Primarily, I'm just looking for a good beginner boat. Of course, assuming I get real into it, it would become my creeking boat and then I'd investigate a playboat later, but that's a decision for later. I'm sure I could learn a lot in it before I would have to worry about that.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

-fool

PS - Looking at other beginner gear stuff. Thoughts on a paddle? Looking at this:http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=W80&sku=W80 200 or http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...1&pdeptid=1648. And any thoughts on PFDs?

[RootSkier]

Start with a playboat. Get worked at first. Your roll will get solid. Learn to make all the hardest moves available in class III and easier class IV. Then worry about a creek boat.

I might be wrong, but I bet that brand new Hero is the first generation that looks like a dildo cigar and there is a good reason it is cheap. You can definitely find a suitable playboat for that price.

But your location and goals definitely matter so tell us where you are and want you want to be paddling in two years.

[summit]

You need an 08 or newer Hero. The older one is for racing, not river running.

Otherwise the Hero is a great boat. Just don't imagine it is a playboat, despite that video.

[XXX-er]

How much money you got ... you need somewhere close to or under 2K

"good for a beginner"seems to mean shit an experienced paddler wouldn't touch ,which I don't understand cuz when you are learning is exactly when you need the good gear imo

Boats come and go faster than girl friends but paddles ,helmets , pfd's ,dry tops,spray decs you want to buy good quality

going creek boat 1st ,play boat second ... could be interesting

[RootSkier]

How much money you got ... you need somewhere close to or under 2K

No way, a grand (if we are talking $US).

$450 playboat
$100 used paddle
$100 helmet
$50 used skirt
$50 Sierra Trading Post whitewater PFD
$150 Sierra Trading Post mediocre drytop
$100 shoes/neoprene socks/noseplugs/beanie

Any self respecting skier that found TGR will have plenty of insulation layers. Of course, if money is no object the very first thing any aspiring high latitude/altitude boater should buy is a top quality drysuit with booties and a relief zipper (the other $1000, I suppose).

[summit]

I agree with Rootskier.

Also, do NOT spend money on your paddle until you have a reliable combat role and have broken the habit of letting go of the paddle if you do swim.

Not that I'm a good kayaker or anything, but I've seen new boaters lose their $400 or $600 paddle on a class III swim.

[brosia]

I started out boating in a hero. . . it made me progress further and faster than if I would have if I started in a play boat. The hero is a good boat.

[sb]

This may take some time and effort but the best advise I or anyone can give is you should demo as many boats as you can. If this boat is the older Hero it would not be the best starter boat. You want something forgiving and that will let you learn good paddling technique first. This is applicable for whitewater as well as touring.

There are tons of used boats out there, look around. Dancers, RPM, T-Canyon are just a few names. I would also recommend getting a creek style boat first before a play boat. Look for deals on gear too, they are around. Any start up sport is expensive and beginners tend to be hard on gear. As you progress you can spend more $$ on better gear.

It sounds like you have some paddling friends so you will need their help and assistance at first. Clubs can be very good for beginners also. The best way to become a good paddler is to paddle with folks who are better than you and to emulate what they do(that works).

[skiing-in-jackson]

Yes, I've been waiting for a thread like this to come along. I too am a beginning kayaker. I haven't touched one for fifteen years.

I put out the word I needed a beginner boat for me and my kids to play in. This is what showed up. (Many thanks to local mags who offered stuff!) I've been kayaking nearly every day in a small creek that runs right through Jackson.

1995 Dagger Crossfire costing $0.00
19xx wave Sport Extreme costing $0.00

one new spray skit @ $100
two old free skirts @ $0.00

one new double paddle @ $89.00
one well used paddle @ $0.00

Rock climbing helmets on the water? They look and work fine. cost: $0.00

We're using old ski jackets and well worn PFD's- but they work.

Thoughts on the two above boats? No hijack intended, just adding to a beginner thread.

Thanks in advance & pics of the gang to follow soon

[fool]

Start with a playboat. Get worked at first. Your roll will get solid. Learn to make all the hardest moves available in class III and easier class IV. Then worry about a creek boat.

I might be wrong, but I bet that brand new Hero is the first generation that looks like a dildo cigar and there is a good reason it is cheap. You can definitely find a suitable playboat for that price.

But your location and goals definitely matter so tell us where you are and want you want to be paddling in two years.

Root, I understand your point about starting with a playboat. I'll try to see if there are any playboats for sale around here but I haven't found any lately. And the reason this Hero is cheap is because the guy who owns it is NOT a paddler: he worked for EJ at Jackson Kayak and I think he hooked up him with two kayaks, the other one is a rec. boat.

I'm located near Watertown, NY, about an hour north of Syracuse. And another point, I'm only going to be here living here till October and then I'll be gone for a full year (without any boat use) before returning. Just FYI.

You need an 08 or newer Hero. The older one is for racing, not river running.

Otherwise the Hero is a great boat. Just don't imagine it is a playboat, despite that video.

Good to know. I'll ask what year it is, though I'm under the impression it's "brand new" it definitely could be older. I'm not imagining it as a playboat, I just think I could learn a fair bit with it trying to surf, get very basic stuff down, etc.

No way, a grand (if we are talking $US).

$450 playboat
$100 used paddle
$100 helmet
$50 used skirt
$50 Sierra Trading Post whitewater PFD
$150 Sierra Trading Post mediocre drytop
$100 shoes/neoprene socks/noseplugs/beanie

Any self respecting skier that found TGR will have plenty of insulation layers. Of course, if money is no object the very first thing any aspiring high latitude/altitude boater should buy is a top quality drysuit with booties and a relief zipper (the other $1000, I suppose).

Agreed: I thought it would be closer to a $1K, or even less, for a very basic setup. Or at least that's what I was hoping.

I started out boating in a hero. . . it made me progress further and faster than if I would have if I started in a play boat. The hero is a good boat.

Good to hear: thanks for the input.



First of all: wow, thanks for all the responses. I didn't expect the kayak forum to have this much activity. Anyway, I'll investigate local playboats around here to see if there area any available. Are there any TGR's of paddling? I did some googling but none of them seemed real legitimate. It would be nice for basic knowledge and to look at used gear. Boatertalk?

I also have a line on NRS prodeals but the order is due tomorrow. This is what I am thinking:

-Astral Willis PFD: http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...2104&sku=42104
-Werner Desperado Rec WW Paddle: http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...0&pdeptid=1648 (Is that overkill?)
-Any thoughts on a sprayskirt?
-Drytop - I was probably going to wait and see if I actually NEED one. I checked out STP and it looks like they have a few so I probably won't be buying one from NRS. I think I'm planning on seeing whether it is necessary or not.
-Helmet, through a separate website I think is going to be a a Bern Baker or Watts. But, then looking closely it doesn't look like they are CE 1385 certified, apparently the whitewater standard. However, NRS's website doesn't seem to mention that standard on their website. So...is that Standard worthwhile?


Thanks again for all the help.

[RootSkier]

That stuff should be fine.

LOLZ at scottyb and the T-Canyon and Dancer references. That shit is crazy. So is demoing for a total newb who really has no idea what they are doing. Beginners should just get something modern and beginner friendly and learn to love it.

Isn't Watertown where the Black River is...in other words, some of the better playboating around? I still vote for a playboat (I guarantee you can find a Jackson Fun or 4Fun for that same price), but it's up to you.

Boatertalk is OK...probably the most active board but it is VERY southeast-centric.

[RootSkier]

1995 Dagger Crossfire costing $0.00
19xx wave Sport Extreme costing $0.00

Thoughts on the two above boats?

It's great that you got some cheap and free gear and are out there paddling. That's the extent of my thoughts on those two boats. I'll only add that boats have progressed as much since 1995 as skis have, FWIW.

This is a pretty good site for used gear: http://boatertalk.com/gear/gear.php

Here in Missoula, BY FAR the best place to find used gear is the bulletin board in the student center on campus. You can almost always get styled out cheap...so keep places like that in mind wherever you are.

[sb]

RootSkier
let the idiot speak


Indeed!

[summit]

Rock climbing helmets on the water? They look and work fine. cost: $0.00

No no no no no no no no no no no no!

[RootSkier]

let the idiot speak

Indeed!

You recommended a T-CANYON AND A DANCER. I suppose you recommend late 80's vintage skis to new skiers, too?

Keep on doing your thing man. Soul surfing in a long boat on a slow ass green wave will always be a part of the sport. It's just not what most people are looking for these days.

A T-Canyon. I am still laughing over here....going boatin shortly though. Hope you are too.

[fool]

This may take some time and effort but the best advise I or anyone can give is you should demo as many boats as you can. If this boat is the older Hero it would not be the best starter boat. You want something forgiving and that will let you learn good paddling technique first. This is applicable for whitewater as well as touring.

There are tons of used boats out there, look around. Dancers, RPM, T-Canyon are just a few names. I would also recommend getting a creek style boat first before a play boat. Look for deals on gear too, they are around. Any start up sport is expensive and beginners tend to be hard on gear. As you progress you can spend more $$ on better gear.

It sounds like you have some paddling friends so you will need their help and assistance at first. Clubs can be very good for beginners also. The best way to become a good paddler is to paddle with folks who are better than you and to emulate what they do(that works).

I would love to demo some boats, but I'm really not sure if there are any places to demo around here. I just did a quick google and nothing really showed up. But I'll keep looking.

Indeed I have a small, but getting larger, group of friends up here that boat a lot. One of them took me out yesterday on the Black River and just did some basic paddling and some rolls. I've also looked up paddling clubs too and am going to investigate them further.

Isn't Watertown where the Black River is...in other words, some of the better playboating around? I still vote for a playboat (I guarantee you can find a Jackson Fun or 4Fun for that same price), but it's up to you.

Boatertalk is OK...probably the most active board but it is VERY southeast-centric.

Indeed: the Black River is super close. See, that's the thing, while I'm slowly learning the area, I don't know whether it's good playboating or creeking around here, though I think there's lots of both within a 2 hour drive. I'm looking around for playboats now too and we'll see what I can find.

Yeah, Boatertalk did some SE centric..lots of TN/NC/GAs.

Here in Missoula, BY FAR the best place to find used gear is the bulletin board in the student center on campus. You can almost always get styled out cheap...so keep places like that in mind wherever you are.

Good thought. There's a local college here that I could check out and Syracuse isn't too far.

After a little searching I've found the following playboats not too far from me:

-Liquidlogic Ronin 49
-Wavesport Ace 5.1
-Wavesport XXX (though it seems like it would be too small for me as I'm 6'2")

Thanks again for all the responses. Off for some flatwater paddling this afternoon...

[fool]

How about the length of paddle? Doing a little googling yielded that since I'm 6'2" a playboat paddle would be 197 and a creeking paddle would be 200. So, I'm thinking for a general all purpose paddle of going with a 197. Is a 3cm difference going to matter that much?

[XXX-er]

No way, a grand (if we are talking $US).

$450 playboat
$100 used paddle
$100 helmet
$50 used skirt
$50 Sierra Trading Post whitewater PFD
$150 Sierra Trading Post mediocre drytop
$100 shoes/neoprene socks/noseplugs/beanie
.

2K was top end of the spectrum , if all the planets aligned I could do 1K cuz I am a total gearslut but a newbie would be trying to connect up a lot of dots, the problem is that a newb has absolutely no clue what is good and modern and what is old shit ...they just see cheap price and they will end up with LONG heavy aluminium shaft 90degree paddles , t-canyons, the wrong size leaky skirt from an old style boat and think they got a great deal ...you don't want to hurt feelings by saying its all shit



where you can't cut corners is the boat & paddle ,it MUST be a modern play boat and a great starter is at least an EZ or BIG EZ , EZG other wise you can't play on the river features where everyone else will be playing ,

paddle wise also don't cut corners it must be reasonably light and good quality ,a glass werner in the right length ,the right shaft , of the correct low angle featehr ,with blades that arent worn down 2" off each end

the rest you can possibly fake except for the helmet ... you must go out and buy a metal flake kevlar thingy that gives minimal protection and balances on yer head like a matress balances on a bottle of wine

the thing with buying old crap is that if you stick with the sport you realize you bought crap so you want better stuff ,by the time you buy the real gear you spent the same $ as if you bought good stuff to start with AND you had to learn on crap when you really needed that extra edge the best gear would have given you

learning to ww paddle is not like alpine skiing , I seen alot of people wash out of ww paddling,probably 1 newbie from a beginner class going on to become a paddler is all an instructor hopes for ...IMO you need the edge that good gear will give you so count on 1-2K but you get what you pay for

[crackboy]

paddle size is all preference, but at 6'2 you probably want a 197

a hero will help build confidence by being supportive of newbie mistakes.

i personally can't stand those desparado paddles. its like trying to use a noodle. if you have the deal i would just get a fiberglass sherpa or powerhouse.

[Hugh Conway]

a dancer or a t-canyon? lulz

[Tye 1on]

a dancer or a t-canyon? lulz

Indeed.

But i'll never let go of my Pirouette!

[soylent green]

I disagree with what Root is saying about boat choice. Find a used river runner and buy it in the upper volume range for your weight. The modern river runners are very playful and forgiving. Think CR250 or Fun/4Fun. There is a shitstorm of used boats over on mountainbuzz.com right now. Most everything else Root says makes sense.

[RootSkier]

I disagree with what Root is saying about boat choice. Think CR250 or Fun/4Fun.

That's cool, but the only boat I specifically recommended was a Fun.

[soylent green]

That's cool, but the only boat I specifically recommended was a Fun.

Reading comprehension= not my strong point

I would also add Necky Mission(awesome boat if under 200 pounds), Dagger Rx, Fluid Spice to the list of good ones. If they made a Necky Mission in a higher volume thats what I would be paddling.

[soylent green]

After a little searching I've found the following playboats not too far from me:

-Liquidlogic Ronin 49
-Wavesport Ace 5.1
-Wavesport XXX (though it seems like it would be too small for me as I'm 6'2")

The Ronin is a pretty dedicated playboat. It may be an OK river runner if you get one that has a lot of volume for your weight.(check this out on their website) If you want the boat for play you want to be at the lower end of the weight range for that size/volume boat. If you want to run rivers you need to buy the next size up. If you are obese you should get the Tcanyon .

The Ace is pretty low volume and has grabby ends. You will learn some great lessons the hard way with this one. Again pay attention to the weight range. If you get good in this boat it will do amazing cartwheels.

XXX- see description above and multiply by 2.

My best guess is that these boats are not for you. Maybe the Ace if you are a little bugger.