Perfect ski/surf car = Honda Element Ecamper?

[El Chupacabra]

Right now my leading candidate is a Nissan Frontier crew cab with the 6' bed and manual trans. Only one of its kind (the Tacoma doesn't come in a manual transmission).

Did Toyota drop the manual transmission as an option? They used to be available in the current (2005+) Tacoma 4WD.

[char]

It seems like the Frontiers are really low compared to the Tacoma? Almost seems like it would make driving offroad a PITA and require a lift.

Toyotas website lists the 4x2 with a manual and the 4x4 with a 5 or 6 speed manual.

[Danno]

Did Toyota drop the manual transmission as an option? They used to be available in the current (2005+) Tacoma 4WD.

I guess they must have, at least in the 6' bed option.

ETA: I am not talking about all 4wd tacomas, just the crew cab ones.

[Fenris]

It seems like the Frontiers are really low compared to the Tacoma? Almost seems like it would make driving offroad a PITA and require a lift.

The new Forester has 8.7 or 8.9 inches of clearance depending on n/a or turbo. And it looks relatively easy to put in a 1.4 inch strut lift. Any more than that and you start stressing the CVs. I haven't done anything incredibly stupid in it like taking a Volvo 960 up South Colony Lakes, but I should swipe a road sign to make a skid plate before I do.



I went and laid down in my car again. With the front seats scooted and tipped forwards I had about two inches of space so about 6'6" of flat space in back.

[manuthan]

Take out the back seats and you can drop it to basically the floor.



That's what a CRV looks like with the back seats pulled out.

If you wanted a single sleeper in the CRV w/ out back seats - you could have a ton of room.

Headroom is about 28" as my setup is now - which is fine for sleeping or laying down watching a DVD/reading by lamp...

Do you think its possible to do the same set up in a Toyota RAV4?

[hop]

I saw my first real live Ecamper in Nelson this evening. It looked like a really clean install, but the Delica down the street put it to shame.

[Poop~Ghost]

Options I've come up with in my never ending "DO IT ALL RIDE" search.

My current rig is still the CRV I posted pix of in this thread. It works for sleeping even in REALLY cold conditions. But I've tweaked it a few ways. Instead of having the extra bit of plywood go all the way across, I cut it down to go just behind the passenger seat. I'm the only one sleeping in there, so I'd rather set it up in my garage before I depart and be able to just climb in back. Less setup = better when it's sub zero in a snowy pullout.

I've added one of these

to my bin of stuff that always comes with me. It really makes a big difference to have a little heat going all night. One night I blew it out because I thought I'd be fine, woke up in an icebox and could barely get the lighter to light. It stays on now all night.

If I was going to do 3 or more nights in a row in the CRV in really cold temps, I think I'd rig up some velcro-on curtains over the windows in conjunction with reflectix. The windows transfer cold in very effeciently. But for one or two nights, it's fine right now. Another option would be to simply double the thickness of the reflectix.

Other options that I've considered:
Toyata Sienna AWD - and get it converted to a Eurovan style weekender.

Pros:
- Can be found for very cheap with low miles
- Easy to drive in town, park
- Inconspicuous
- Reasonable Gas Milage
- AWD Available
- Setup to relax/sit/eat more than the eCamper.
Cons:
- Pop-Top Conversion will cost you $3000 or more.
- Interior conversion can get pricey if you have somebody do it.
- AWD blows on Sienna
- Very little off-road ability

Next up: The Dodge Sprinter Conversion

Pros:
-HUGE HEADROOM
-Reliable
-Well powered
-Build it how you want it
-Can find them used for $10-20k depending on miles.
-Long-term road tripping would be cake
-Passenger benches available
Cons:
-Sticks out in a parking lot (non-stealth)
-Rear wheel drive
-Need to build interior our yourself
-Might not fit in your garage.
-Little weird for a daily driver.
-Mercedes parts are pricey.

EuroVan / Westy
Pros:
-Minimal custom work to do
-Reasonable daily driver
-Much space
-Can buy them for pretty cheap
-With pop-top you can sleep 4
-2001/02 EV's are powered pretty well - and get ok milage
Cons:
Reliability blows.
Parts expensive and getting rarer.
Good mechs are hard to find in some places
the weekenders/syncros are still expensive for old rigs
Winter conditions make the poptop useless without some custom work.
Inline 5 is underpowered for mountain pass driving.

Toyota Tacoma/Nissan Frontier with a topper
Pros
- reliable, parts are easy
- 4x4 goes almost anywhere
- doable as a commuter - 20ish mpg
- can tow whatever
Cons
- Not that much space - basically you can build a platform in the 6' bed.
- Not very insulated
- Kids/Car-seats in the access cab blows for road trips
- Slide in campers are too heavy for trucks this size

Tundra/Titan: same as above, but they are too expensive for me. More cab room and can take a slide-in, but the mileage is about 14 mpg around town, making them almost a non-option.

Bigger Trucks (Diesel Ford / Chevy) with a slide in camper
Pros
- Camp forever w/ a slide in
- 4x4 gets you most places
- Room for kids in back seats
- Reasonable prices / parts
- All season comfort
Cons
-shit gas milage
-sucks for commuting
-storing the slide in
-might not fit in your garage
-sticks out like a sore thumb

Finally - Vans/Econline/Conversion Vans
Basically same as a big truck, but without 4x4... the dreaded rear wheel drive.

----

So it's all just pie in the sky for me anyways, as I'm pretty broke and a new car isn't in my future - but the last option would be a subbie with a setup like my CRV. Fine for overnight crashing, amazing road handling - just lacks space.

It's so wierd to me that the US market seems to want nothing to do with an updated version of a Eurovan Weekender. I want one. Everybody I know who likes getting out with the family wants one - but US van import restrictions and whatever else means that we have pretty shitty options.

[Danno]

Rumors have a diesel showing up in the new Forester in a year or two or never.

I got so excited by this and the results of my internet sleuthing. But after a bit more sleuthing, the impression I am left with is that this car is never making it over here.

What is the best mpg I could get in an AWD/4WD, manual transmission car? Still seems like we're stuck in the 20s.

[TroySmith80]

Yeah, mercedes has a very cool looking small ute now too. Available in turbo diesel in europe, but not here.

I think the US is ready for diesel now. Look at truck sales. We get it now, diesels are better than they used to be. If every asshat with a big diesel wasn't installing 6" straight-through exhausts, more people would realize how quiet a modern diesel can be as well.

On another note. I finished swapping a 2004 Subaru Forester motor into my 1984 VW Westfalia van. Sweet rig now. It's old, make no mistake, and it does not feel like a new rig. But nothing compares when you're parked. We camped with 4 people in the van at Timberline ski area a few weeks ago. Everyone had room to sleep, and we all 4 hung out inside for a few hours before bedtime, everyone had a seat and we were all facing each other. Fired up the little buddy propane heater in the morning and got things warmed up.

It's not as nice a driver as the newer rigs (although it does have it's own unique charm, and i rather enjoy driving it), but it cannot be beat for camping, unless compared to a full-on RV. I've got $10k into mine, including the subaru swap.

[Poop~Ghost]

Yeah, mercedes has a very cool looking small ute now too. Available in turbo diesel in europe, but not here.

I think the US is ready for diesel now. Look at truck sales. We get it now, diesels are better than they used to be. If every asshat with a big diesel wasn't installing 6" straight-through exhausts, more people would realize how quiet a modern diesel can be as well.

On another note. I finished swapping a 2004 Subaru Forester motor into my 1984 VW Westfalia van. Sweet rig now. It's old, make no mistake, and it does not feel like a new rig. But nothing compares when you're parked. We camped with 4 people in the van at Timberline ski area a few weeks ago. Everyone had room to sleep, and we all 4 hung out inside for a few hours before bedtime, everyone had a seat and we were all facing each other. Fired up the little buddy propane heater in the morning and got things warmed up.

It's not as nice a driver as the newer rigs (although it does have it's own unique charm, and i rather enjoy driving it), but it cannot be beat for camping, unless compared to a full-on RV. I've got $10k into mine, including the subaru swap.

Did you go through http://www.vanaru.com/ - or did you work it all out on your own?

I have started looking for a mid-80's westy to make my garage hobby... hopefully doing a subby conversion when the time comes.

[TroySmith80]

I bought parts from www.smallcar.com and i did the work myself. Wasn't too bad of a project, but i had a killer shop to work in.

[Poop~Ghost]

Awesome man, post up some pix!!

[TroySmith80]

[Poop~Ghost]

Sweet van. My love/hate relationship with VW continues. Easy to love the van, easy to hate the fuckers when they breakdown. And so the subaru engine makes it so appealing.

[TroySmith80]

yeah, it'll go over the pass at 60-70 now too.

[squatch]

I got so excited by this and the results of my internet sleuthing. But after a bit more sleuthing, the impression I am left with is that this car is never making it over here.

What is the best mpg I could get in an AWD/4WD, manual transmission car? Still seems like we're stuck in the 20s.

I don't get the mileage obsession, especially re: diesels. If they're anything like trucks, there's a significant upcharge. I think it's an extra 10K to put a diesel engine in a full size truck. I don't know what a car diesel is, but it seems like they're in high demand so the car might cost $5000 more. Once you factor in the increased cost of diesel, you'd need to go from 20 mpg to 27ish mpg to recoup the additional 5K cost of a diesel. (This assumes you drive 150k miles on the same car, which is generous, and $3 gas and $3.20 diesel.) The higher the mileage you get, the more mpg you need in increase to recoup your costs...if the gas version gets 25 mpg, the diesel needs to get 37 mpg to break even.

(Oddly enough, the worse the gas mileage, the better the diesel seems as an option, simply because you already have to spend a much higher amount of $$ on gas, so the $5k becomes less large relative to the other costs.)

For the user, the diesel *might* work out, especially you, Danno, given your propensity to hold the cars for their full life. I know a ton of people, though, looking at $55k cars and worried about a few bucks here and there on mileage differences. Compared to insurance, car payments, and other costs, gas mileage should be a non-issue. Put another way, saving 15K on the cost of the car pays for 100,000 miles of gas at 20 mpg.

[Beyond]

Did Toyota drop the manual transmission as an option? They used to be available in the current (2005+) Tacoma 4WD.

Still are, 5 or 6 speed, in all models including the standard, double cab etc. Know cuz I just researched, then fondled the double a few weeks ago. Think the long beds may all have been autos, though.

[Sirshredalot]

A couple quibbles with your reasoning squatch: You don't have to hang on the car for its entire life to recoup the costs. You'll recoup some non-trivial amount on resale.

Also, you need to apply some sort of reasonable discount rate to the gas payments that are way out in the future. Maybe that discount rate is the same as the financing rate that you can get on the car, or whatever - but there is some time value associated with the financial outlay being pushed off into the future.

But if you're buying a $55000 new car you're flushing money down the toilet the second you drive it off the lot due to the depreciation over the vehicle's first few years of its service life.

Anyhow, I agree with your point in general.

I don't get the mileage obsession, especially re: diesels. If they're anything like trucks, there's a significant upcharge. I think it's an extra 10K to put a diesel engine in a full size truck. I don't know what a car diesel is, but it seems like they're in high demand so the car might cost $5000 more. Once you factor in the increased cost of diesel, you'd need to go from 20 mpg to 27ish mpg to recoup the additional 5K cost of a diesel. (This assumes you drive 150k miles on the same car, which is generous, and $3 gas and $3.20 diesel.) The higher the mileage you get, the more mpg you need in increase to recoup your costs...if the gas version gets 25 mpg, the diesel needs to get 37 mpg to break even.

(Oddly enough, the worse the gas mileage, the better the diesel seems as an option, simply because you already have to spend a much higher amount of $$ on gas, so the $5k becomes less large relative to the other costs.)

For the user, the diesel *might* work out, especially you, Danno, given your propensity to hold the cars for their full life. I know a ton of people, though, looking at $55k cars and worried about a few bucks here and there on mileage differences. Compared to insurance, car payments, and other costs, gas mileage should be a non-issue. Put another way, saving 15K on the cost of the car pays for 100,000 miles of gas at 20 mpg.

[squatch]

This is true...and on some cars, full diesel trucks in particular, the resale is noticeable. But my boss wants a new car, and she really wants the X5 but there's a mileage question. Which I think is nuts, given the scale of her expenses. It's kind of like going to a nice restaurant and worrying about the valet.

Generally, for most people their discount rate = CPI. Or it's ridiculous, like their credit card interest rate. A lot of individuals don't have efficient enough finances to even consider a discount rate (including myself, even though I'm aware of it and *should* be more responsible. But fuck it, I like toys and expensive hobbies and bad decisions.)

A couple quibbles with your reasoning squatch: You don't have to hang on the car for its entire life to recoup the costs. You'll recoup some non-trivial amount on resale.

Also, you need to apply some sort of reasonable discount rate to the gas payments that are way out in the future. Maybe that discount rate is the same as the financing rate that you can get on the car, or whatever - but there is some time value associated with the financial outlay being pushed off into the future.

But if you're buying a $55000 new car you're flushing money down the toilet the second you drive it off the lot due to the depreciation over the vehicle's first few years of its service life.

Anyhow, I agree with your point in general.

[Danno]

I don't get the mileage obsession, especially re: diesels. If they're anything like trucks, there's a significant upcharge. I think it's an extra 10K to put a diesel engine in a full size truck. I don't know what a car diesel is, but it seems like they're in high demand so the car might cost $5000 more. Once you factor in the increased cost of diesel, you'd need to go from 20 mpg to 27ish mpg to recoup the additional 5K cost of a diesel. (This assumes you drive 150k miles on the same car, which is generous, and $3 gas and $3.20 diesel.) The higher the mileage you get, the more mpg you need in increase to recoup your costs...if the gas version gets 25 mpg, the diesel needs to get 37 mpg to break even.

(Oddly enough, the worse the gas mileage, the better the diesel seems as an option, simply because you already have to spend a much higher amount of $$ on gas, so the $5k becomes less large relative to the other costs.)

For the user, the diesel *might* work out, especially you, Danno, given your propensity to hold the cars for their full life. I know a ton of people, though, looking at $55k cars and worried about a few bucks here and there on mileage differences. Compared to insurance, car payments, and other costs, gas mileage should be a non-issue. Put another way, saving 15K on the cost of the car pays for 100,000 miles of gas at 20 mpg.

I get ~16-18mpg right now, so a diesel wagon that gets 37mpg would be a significant upgrade.

Still are, 5 or 6 speed, in all models including the standard, double cab etc. Know cuz I just researched, then fondled the double a few weeks ago. Think the long beds may all have been autos, though.

I was interested in the crew cab long bed, and that only comes in an auto.

[hop]

The quest continues, but check this out for inspiration!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=977092

Once you are done drooling over that rig, check out their blog. FKNA!

http://translate.google.com/translat...nisbager.dk%2F

[skisurfmirth]

Its really small, but the subaru sambar looks interesting. You can sleep in it, can get it with subi's awd system and with a 660cc engine you'll get better milage than anything else on the road. I was thinking it would be good for getting to the ski hill, Roger's Pass and surf missions.

http://www.tyeeimports.com/jdm-cars-...-Subaru-Sambar

[GeezerSteve]

Cool conversion, in concept. Hope it works out for you. I seriously looked at doing it. But my experience with Westy conversions was a sad and very expensive tale of woe. I had a Westy, originally diesel, converted to a 1.8L Golf engine, EFI. Sweet when it worked, but a completely fucked up situation when it broke down. And that happened way too often. After the first two seasons of use, it became a fuckin' money pit and constant source of anxiety.

I replaced the converted Westy POS with a Four Wheel Camper on a 4x4 F150, which has been essentially trouble-free for 7 years/30K/many comfortable nights. I more than make up for the decreased fuel efficiency (15mpg vs. 20mpg) by saving money on fixes -- by a factor of something around 50X, it seems.

I wish you the best with that, TroySmith80. AYO, beware any Westy conversion.

[Poop~Ghost]

The quest continues, but check this out for inspiration!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=977092

Once you are done drooling over that rig, check out their blog. FKNA!

http://translate.google.com/translat...nisbager.dk%2F

Yo Hop,

http://www.greaseworks.org/tdivanagon

These guys will put a TDI + manual in a vanagon or eurovan for you. Pricing is much cheaper than 27k.

[hop]

Yo Hop,

http://www.greaseworks.org/tdivanagon

These guys will put a TDI + manual in a vanagon or eurovan for you. Pricing is much cheaper than 27k.

I'm still not convinced I want a VW anything and those are still way out of my budget for the Syncro version, but that's pretty cool.

The question now is:
After dropping $1600 on getting my Suby back in perfect running order, do I sell her and pick up the relatively cherry AWD Previa I've got my eye on or do I keep the Suby?

Heart says minivan. Wallet/gas pump says Suby.