Introducing WNDR Alpine

[wndr_alpine]

From what I understood, the basic notion was to try some new materials for the sake of novelty. For now, the skis aren’t more sustainable than others although they are marketed as that. Damn! I felt the first podcast was basically advertising and some eloquent marketing mumbo jumbo without having any real benefit (at the moment that is).
It’s an interesting concept and I would gladly try a pair but at the same time don’t see why I should buy WNDR over a well established brand.

As to why support WNDR versus any other established brand, just look down and see that the materials haven’t changed that make up your skis. Those same brands use the same materials as all the others, just in a different configuration, shape and color. In some cases, they even feel the same. We’ve taken on the challenge to reinvent what these world class skis are made of. We have proven our worth in design, through decades of years in practice, producing award winning skis but out of the same old materials. For me this brand is more than a product, it’s given birth to a community of influencers and advocates who are seeking change across a variety of technological and environmental interests, all seeking to play a role in reducing our impact on the tracks we create and leave behind. - Matt

[PlayItLeo]

Matt, is Pep joining the squad?


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I’ll answer my own question...



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[Kirby]

Sorry, but until you can explain why your materials are more "sustainable", this is just greenwashing.

[Timberridge]

I think once you react the polyol with isocyanate or whatever you react it with to create the polyurethane, it's kind of a moot point where it came from. But if it makes you feel better that it came from currently living algae in a big stainless steel vat in CA vs. 1,000,000 yr old algae in a big hole in the ground in West TX, then by all means have at it.

[nickwm21]

I like the marketing approach of a ski for fall, winter, spring. Interested in seeing the other shapes


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[Doremite]

Just appreciate the proactive dipping of the toe into the TGR waters. The posts so far prove the wisdom of the tip of the cap in this direction. Lots of open source knowledge here and I believe a collective desire for more environmentally sustainable ski construction.

[wndr_alpine]

Sorry, but until you can explain why your materials are more "sustainable", this is just greenwashing.

Thanks for challenging us on this topic. It’s the very reason why no one is talking about it because it’s difficult to imagine making skis with some of their primary materials not being derived from petroleum.

We are not making any claims that our skis are the most sustainable out of the gate, but the goal is move away from petroleum, and the oil we are using to build our composite core comes from a renewable resource. As we grow, more and more interior components of our skis will be made with this oil, which is less environmentally harmful than the petroleum alternative. We are also thoughtful about our manufacturing process and saving almost 2lb of waste from the landfill per pair over conventional processes. We have several initiatives we are taking, both in terms of our Checkerspot technology platform as well in how we produce, focusing on minimizing waste stream, clean energy consumption, all the way through reclaiming product at end of life as a feedstock to play a role in components for future skis using post consumer waste. These efforts combined will lead to impactful results but we are at the precipice of this project and we’re out recruiting skiers to join us now on this journey. - Matt

[zartagen]

How do you pronounce WNDR?

[wndr_alpine]

How do you pronounce WNDR?

Wonder

[reckless toboggan]

Looks like oh-NEE-ders.

[weibo]

Wonder

I was thinking it was Wander.

[reckless toboggan]

Winder.

(Wine-der)

[wndr_alpine]

Matt, is Pep joining the squad?


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Yo PlayitLeo, it was so hard not to answer your question but you nailed it!

Pep and I have been ski buds for 20 years or so. We have cultivated a great friendship over the years and now its honestly just a dream come true to work with him on WNDR, and to showcase the entire 'Pep Factor' package as we build this thing from the ground up. Here's a welcome vid we shot last week in the SLC Checkerspot Design Lab.

[sruffian]

Matt your post went from leveling with us to copypasta. Pep’s post says #treadlightchargehard

I’ve really enjoyed several of your ski designs and it sounds like an innovative product

BUT REPLACING WOOD LAMINATE WITH ALGAE PLASTIC IS NOT TREADING LIGHT

Hope the company continues to innovate and quits trying to make money by implying sustainability that doesn’t currently exist


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[stuckathuntermtn]

Wait. Why would I want this?

[El Kanone]

I see there’s some skepticism and curiosity surrounding our technology, its reference to sustainability and its integration into our skis!

First and foremost, we're creating our products because of the new performance characteristics that our technology can unlock. In the case of the ski core, we developed a biobased material to improve bulk strength to weight, torsional rigidity, and dampness characteristics. These materials, aside from targeting our desired performance characteristics, are derived from a renewable resource - in this case, microalgae. Sure, the most sustainable ski possible would be hand carved out of a single plank of wood, but for those of us that want cutting edge performance from modern materials, this technology offers us something pretty revolutionary. Certainly not claiming we’re perfect out of the gate, but our technology provides us with a very real pathway to better products within an industry that historically has always had no choice but to rely on petroleum.

For those that haven’t had the chance to listen to the podcast, WNDR Alpine is the “vehicle” for Checkerspot’s technology to prove the superior performance of new materials and iteratively evolve them in ways that the oil industry has not.

Checkerspot designs high performance materials at a molecular level with technology at the nexus of biology and chemistry. By engaging directly with product users and partnering with socially responsible corporations, we design and bring to market superior products with better materials to meet real needs. Our first materials are next-gen polyurethanes and textile coatings/finishes that make consumer products perform at levels never before possible. We are readying the release of several outdoor recreation products in the market to validate our approach and to kickstart a sequence of iterative projects based on our technology.

Through large scale fermentation, we can deliver unique oils discovered in nature, but not previously accessible commercially. Our initial focus is on oils that can impart high value physical properties for materials by leveraging unique molecular scaffolds in a more sustainable fashion than incumbent petroleum inputs.

Skis are largely reinforced by a wide range of petrochemical based polyurethane “plastics.” We have the ability to change what these plastics are derived from: A cleaner, renewable, more sustainable approach to meet and exceed performance criteria we demand in our gear. - Matt

This reads like it was written by Greg from Alpine Zone. Or Ernest Hemingway.


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[Mountainfreakus]

To me, this seems like an experiment in new materials, which I am all for. As MS says, this is a vehicle for the lab to try a new kind of plastic. Right, isn't this algae-based core a new kind of plastic? To me, creating alternative types of materials that perform like plastic is a worthwhile endeavor. Reminds me a lot of the surf industry actually. When Clark Foam closed it's doors, the board builders were forced to re-imagine new core materials which has now led to more innovation in the industry. Of course, virtually no complex product like a surfboard or skis is going to be net carbon neutral but moving in that direction is necessary. Petroleum-based plastic production is a pretty dirty process. I can see this leading to a cleaner industry down the road a few years.

[galileo]

TAKEBACK PROGRAM
...If you return your WNDR Alpine skis to us within three years of your purchase, we’ll take them back and safely upcycle them, while taking care to reduce environmental harm. And as a thank you for taking part in our program, we’ll give you 20% off on your next pair. - from https://wndr-alpine.com/products/wnd...17242238877786

WNDR Alpine will offer a three-year buyback program to recycle and ultimately re-use old ski material. He won’t divulge details on exactly how the process works, but says Checkerspot has a method to undo the manufacturing process on skis to access the usable materials inside of them. - from https://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...country-skiing

...We have several initiatives we are taking, both in terms of our Checkerspot technology platform as well in how we produce, focusing on minimizing waste stream, clean energy consumption, all the way through reclaiming product at end of life as a feedstock to play a role in components for future skis using post consumer waste...

Wow. Why tear apart a perfectly good rideable ski?

- Does WNDR really expect the "end of life" of WNDR skis to be within 3 years of purchase?
Heck, my 23-year-old Atomic Powder Plus started delamming at the tip last winter, but even THEY are not at "end of life" yet---they are only 1 T-nut away from being good-to-go again.

- Does WNDR really expect that a 3-year-old WNDR ski will deliver such a poor riding experience that there's more value in tearing it apart to re-use its scrap materials, instead of letting another buyer ski it as a used ski for a few more years???

- 3 years from now, when you A/B Test a used 3-year-old "CAMBER"-version Intention 110 next to a brand new "REVERSE CAMBER"-version Intention 110, do you really expect the softened CAMBER-version ski to perform WAY worse than the brand new REVERSE CAMBER-version?

- So if a rich person wants to buy & return WNDR skis everyday all winter long, after only 1 day skiing per pair, then WNDR will tear apart ALL those returned 1-day-old skis, instead of selling them used to other buyers for more days of actual skiing???

This nonsensical program seems like either WNDR has not thought this through, or else WNDR is trying to keep their skis off the used ski market, to boost sales of new skis, at the expense of the environment. Makes no sense to me.

.

[Danno]

I appreciate what you say you are trying to do, sounds cool. And appreciate your willingness to subject yourself to the scrutiny of the unwashed masses of tgr. But agree with those who are skeptical, it does sound like green washing. Will there be any attempt to have some independent verification of your claims, or do we just have to take your word for it that your skis are more "green"?

[CHAIR_97]

If Pep is on board we should probably all do the same. FKNA PEP!

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[wndr_alpine]

I appreciate what you say you are trying to do, sounds cool. And appreciate your willingness to subject yourself to the scrutiny of the unwashed masses of tgr. But agree with those who are skeptical, it does sound like green washing. Will there be any attempt to have some independent verification of your claims, or do we just have to take your word for it that your skis are more "green"?

OK, check it out. We are not claiming our skis are "greener" than the next guy. As we have stated earlier, it could be argued in the opposite, we are removing wood and replacing the wood with our algal composite. We are saying however that we are creating innovative materials from micro-algae which are made to achieve specific performance characteristics.

For the Intention 110, we wanted a ski that has an optimum weight (light for uphill) and damp for when you want to charge. We identified how we could achieve this using our scientists to formulate a material from our non-petroleum based oil, that would shave weight while improving dampness. As for our sustainability initiatives, they are currently based on our manufacturing process which is currently saving 2lb of waste from the landfill per pair of skis. What we have not drawn attention to is our use of Entropy Super Sap resin (which is bio based) and FSC certified Aspen. We have identified next steps to further achieving our goals in identifying other properties we want in various types of skis and will achieve them over time. We have to start somewhere and that somewhere is rooted in a performance design and thoughtfulness in manufacturing. This is just the beginning and we appreciate the scrutiny as it gives us the opportunity to continue to evolve.

I truly appreciate your skepticism. I am personally a skeptic, particularly when it comes to green washing. Algae (despite being green) is an incredible resource that has novel molecular characteristics, combined with our expert team of scientists and engineers, we will make a difference in this industry. Our core values are rooted in technological innovation, the byproduct, responsibility.

One of the reasons I signed on to WNDR Alpine is not because I believe in the technology, It's because I've been shown how it works and can see the possibilities. I do not believe, I know, and that compelled me to become a part of this company, brand and philosophy.

Cheers,

Pep

[Cozzey]

Wow. Why tear apart a perfectly good rideable ski?

- Does WNDR really expect the "end of life" of WNDR skis to be within 3 years of purchase?
Heck, my 23-year-old Atomic Powder Plus started delamming at the tip last winter, but even THEY are not at "end of life" yet---they are only 1 T-nut away from being good-to-go again.

- Does WNDR really expect that a 3-year-old WNDR ski will deliver such a poor riding experience that there's more value in tearing it apart to re-use its scrap materials, instead of letting another buyer ski it as a used ski for a few more years???

- 3 years from now, when you A/B Test a used 3-year-old "CAMBER"-version Intention 110 next to a brand new "REVERSE CAMBER"-version Intention 110, do you really expect the softened CAMBER-version ski to perform WAY worse than the brand new REVERSE CAMBER-version?

- So if a rich person wants to buy & return WNDR skis everyday all winter long, after only 1 day skiing per pair, then WNDR will tear apart ALL those returned 1-day-old skis, instead of selling them used to other buyers for more days of actual skiing???

This nonsensical program seems like either WNDR has not thought this through, or else WNDR is trying to keep their skis off the used ski market, to boost sales of new skis, at the expense of the environment. Makes no sense to me.

.

Definitely valid things to consider. I recently emailed WNDR with questions regarding their recycle and upcycle program, hoping to get a deal on a set later in the winter after Demos and such. But I think the ski industry is changing so much now with altered ski models each year that it could be beneficial to atleast offer this. There are so many pairs of skis out there that could be reused to recreate a new model that will be more appealing, but instead are just sitting in garages or ski lockers.

I think if a ski is returned in perfectly good, rideable condition they will choose to sell it at a discounted price instead of going straight to tearing it apart. At least thats what I got from talking with them. Rich people who want to buy skis to only ski 1 day per year are going to do that no matter what. Honestly let them buy from WNDR, let them support a smaller indie brand that is really giving feedback to the ski industry and striving for change. The chance for a rich person to recycle the ski could be an amazing for a ski brand to get into the second-hand market.

The true issue were addressing is consumerism and the fact that everyone wants the newest and best thing out there. Many people can easily afford this too, but theres nothing WNDR can do to change what people in the market may want. Honestly im hoping some vail cat buys a pair of these and returns them for some odd reason so I can cop em for a cheaper price and put my beasts on them. Theyve got a really good crew, and have some cool ideas. I support them...


(which a side note to WNDR, please get Eric Hjorleifson on board!!!)

[Lupolicious]

I like the idea of smarter materials in our skis. Everyone talks the talk about "Save our Winters" and such, but it's hard not to be a total hypocrite with everything we wear/use is made of petroleum products that just last a couple of years. Or driving mom's Suburban from Boulder to A-basin to ride the chair.

[galileo]

Props to WNDR for changing their Takeback Program policy since my previous post above. Now, instead of promising to constrain themselves to upcycling skis in every case, WNDR's new policy gives them wiggle room to choose a "responsible" course of action for each individual case (including a willingness to upcycle when that is a "responsible" option). Also, another big change is that the new policy commits to taking back your skis even after 3 years (and still do something "responsible" with them).

The new policy from their website:

TAKEBACK PROGRAM

We take pride in acting responsibly and seek to give our customers an opportunity to join us through the WNDR Takeback Program.

As a first step, we always encourage you to sell or donate your skis to friends, family or a local charity.

We will also take back your skis at the end of life and, depending on the condition, we may: 1) refurbish and find them a new home, 2) deconstruct and re-use parts of the internal materials, or 3) upcycle the skis. In all cases, we inspect the worn skis and utilize the data to help us improve our manufacturing process and ultimately the ski performance.

Lastly, as an incentive, if you send your skis back within 3 years, you will receive 20% off a new pair of skis, and have the peace of mind knowing that your old skis have been dealt with responsibly.

Also...

...I think if a ski is returned in perfectly good, rideable condition they will choose to sell it at a discounted price instead of going straight to tearing it apart.

Yes, WNDR's new policy no longer forbids themselves from doing that.

The true issue were addressing is consumerism and the fact that everyone wants the newest and best thing out there.

Yes, people are biased in favor of "new", but IMO they are often NOT biased in favor of "best". For example, are top-selling heavily-promoted 1-hit wonder boy bands really the "best" musical artists?

Many people can easily afford this too, but theres nothing WNDR can do to change what people in the market may want.

I disagree strongly. Brands can indeed change/influence what people in the market want. It's not a one-way relationship between consumers and brands.

Theyve got a really good crew, and have some cool ideas. I support them...

Yeah, I want to support WNDR, but my personal preference is first I'd like to see them prioritize substance over the facade/marketspeak I have seen so far. WNDR took a step in that direction here, showing their willingness to stop and think through the substance of their Takeback Program policy, then improved their marketspeak about it.

[wndr_alpine]

What’s up TGR fam?!

It’s been a minute since I wrote in. Found myself slogging up the Victor side of Teton Pass on my bike admiring the rock landscape to some of my favorite terrain a couple weeks back and got me thinking of you and the journey since we last wrote in upon the launch of WNDR Alpine last year.

I’m returning to reopen this thread and thank all who participated in the conversation for giving us your candid thoughts, checking us on our approach, and providing inspiration to keep innovating and proving what we do as we move forward and grow. So thank you for all of your questions, critiques, and interest!

This last year has culminated in a lot of additional product development, so I wanted to give you guys a heads up about what’s going on.

As promised, we have new materials and new applications coming down the pipeline, and have had an amazing season testing with some of you here and exploring some old favorite locations, all while evaluating ways to improve the skis’ construction. As this forum is a place that has informed us, challenged us, and excited us, we’ll be revealing some content next week on July 8th and look forward to responding to any questions which may come to mind and fill in any gaps of detail we leave out.

Bye for now,

Matt