Any one have experience with the new "freeride" skis that don't need skins?

[raisingarizona13]

Just that I guess. I am curious how they perform. Sounds nice to skip the skin thing.

[bestskieratsnowbird]

wtf are you talking about? these things?
http://www.orscrosscountryskisdirect...r-bc-skis.html

[bbense]

wtf are you talking about? these things?
http://www.orscrosscountryskisdirect...r-bc-skis.html

I've got lot's of time on those. There's also a Charger version now. You still need skins
unless you're willing to set a very shallow skin track. But IMHO, if you live in a climate with
highly variable snow conditions ( Sierra ), these things are great for stuff like slackcountry
and powder stash hunting and just getting from A to B with the least amount of work.

There's no waxless ski out there that you won't need skins to follow a steep skin track.

[raisingarizona13]

Oh ok, bummer. thanks

[sb]

Paging Big Steve

Anywho, BB is correct. You will still need skinz, just allows you to get away with out using them for a bit longer. If you are on rolly terrain looping for low angle turns they will probably stay in the pack.

[bbense]

Paging Big Steve

Anywho, BB is correct. You will still need skinz, just allows you to get away with out using them for a bit longer. If you are on rolly terrain looping for low angle turns they will probably stay in the pack.

Yeah, if you think doing something like this would be fun, they're great.

[sb]

^^^ Sweet turn farming

[~mikey b]

waxless pattern replaces kick wax, not skins

I carry some short skinny "kicker" skins in my pack at work - plenty of grip for climbing here and there

[bbense]

waxless pattern replaces kick wax, not skins

I carry some short skinny "kicker" skins in my pack at work - plenty of grip for climbing here and there

In the perfect climbing (i.e. wet snowball ) conditions, the BC Vectors ( and I suspect even more the BC Chargers ) climb much better than any kick wax. However, 99% of the time you should be going downhill, not uphill in those conditions because the snow pack will be dangerously wet and deep by the time you head downhill. They climb much better than any waxless ski I've used. Even in light dry powder they do much better than I expected.

You still need skins, but it's a lot closer than any other ski I've tried.

[GeezerSteve]

Somebody ought to start a fat fishscale thread. Don't call it "fat waxless" because that confuses some alpine skiers who never heard of kick wax. I learned about the potential confusion last weekend when I did a tour with a fellow mag.

OP, see the Vector BC thread, which also discusses the Charger BC.

waxless pattern replaces kick wax, not skins

They climb much better than any waxless ski I've used. Even in light dry powder they do much better than I expected.

You still need skins, but it's a lot closer than any other ski I've tried.

Ditto to both comments. They climb better than other waxless because they are softer and the pattern is longer. Yup, you'll still need skins for steeper lines on most tours, but the Voile fishscales will get you up a bunch of stuff you've been skinning.

I've got 10 days on my Charger BCs. GF Anita has about the same on her Vector BCs. We are loving them more than we anticipated. Fishscales are not noticeable descending in pow. A bit o' drag on packed glide outs, but not too bad, and really nice on rolling exits. On some tours, the fishscales are a real boon. On some tours not so much help but I can't imagine a tour where I'll wish I didn't have them. They are a bit funky sideslipping down firm stuff, but I quickly got used to it. OTOH, they sometimes makes it much easier to get into your bindings in some places.

Here is a thread re my short pattern DIY milled waxless base, great for scooting around on the flats, crossing frozen lakes, not a climbing base but virtually no added drag.

I expect to see lots of people touring on fishscales 5 years from now. Pretty sure that from now on all my touring skis will be either fishscale or my DIY waxless base. Planning to mill my DIY base into two pairs of skis this weekend.

[bbense]

I expect to see lots of people touring on fishscales 5 years from now. Pretty sure that from now on all my touring skis will be either fishscale or my DIY waxless base. Planning to mill my DIY base into two pairs of skis this weekend.

I couldn't agree more. Once I got Karhu Guides, I was completely sold on the concept and have done pretty much all my BC skiing over the last 5 seasons on fishscale skis. Really wish they made the Vector in a 190cm version.

[GeezerSteve]

BB, do you think the Guide's whacky bevel problem delayed the acceptance of fat fishscales. Those bevels were awful, augmented by the super soft flex.

[lowsparkco]

I think the horribly loud noise and slow downhill speed hurt the Guides more than the "bevel problem." I have a pair of Guides and never really got to the bottom of that whole bevel ordeal. I think a lot of people had high expectations and then couldn't ski a light flexy ski. Just to sound off for another opinion... I think fishscales suck. Basically they allow you to climb w/out skins anything you wouldn't want to ski back down. For the type of terrain they ski well I would rather be on classic XC skis with kick wax and soft comfortable boots. For anything fun to ski you need skins anyways so you might as well be on a real ski that doesn't sound like a manual belt sander and actually has enough speed so you can plane and make turns. Not to stir the pot too much, but the only reason I'd be on fishscales is for cross country skiing on snow when the ambient temp is above freezing also called mountain biking season.

[GeezerSteve]

I would rather be on classic XC skis with kick wax . . .
* * *
when the ambient temp is above freezing also called mountain biking season.

Let me guess. You don't live in the PNW, where the kick wax that works at the start of the tour and ices up 30 minutes into the tour. And where we tour all June and into July.

Or do you put skins over klister?

Fishscales make ZERO noise in powder.

Why the hate for the corn?

[wooley12]

So many fail to grasp that my snow is not your snow. This snow is not that snow. Snow is not just snow. Wahoo!! My Dynafit Ones arrived today and tomorrow I'll take them out for a test ride on my also untested Fischer S-Bound 112 / ST combo to see what they can do well and can not. The kick for me is to see what a ski can do and what adjustments I need to make in terrain / route selection to travel in the mountains.

[~mikey b]

people tend to forget that traveling in the mountains is what it's all about

[LightRanger]

If we were on TTips, this thread would be like 10 pages of bickering by now.

[lowsparkco]

Let me guess. You don't live in the PNW, where the kick wax that works at the start of the tour and ices up 30 minutes into the tour. And where we tour all June and into July.

Or do you put skins over klister?

Fishscales make ZERO noise in powder.

Why the hate for the corn?

You're right, I live in a cold continental snowpack. I think fishscales inland are pure laziness. I don't really know, but can understand why they make sense in a maritime pack. I like corn, I'd just rather ski it on something fast. I boat all summer.

Honestly, they make sense for somewhere it's too hard to match kick wax. But on an average cold day in the continental Rockies it's much more enjoyable to ski low angle with kick wax and higher angle with skins.

When anyone mentions klister I see desert mountain bike trails and 70 degree weather.

You guys are right that being in the mountains is what it's all about, but when I read a review about YOUR snow and don't understand that MY snow is different then maybe I end up on a less enjoyable ski because people think I'm too stupid to figure out how to crayon and cork some kick wax. Not like kick wax is launching shuttles in a cold consistent snowpack.

[Quadzilla]

You're right, I live in a cold continental snowpack. I think fishscales inland are pure laziness. I don't really know, but can understand why they make sense in a maritime pack. I like corn, I'd just rather ski it on something fast. I boat all summer.

Honestly, they make sense for somewhere it's too hard to match kick wax. But on an average cold day in the continental Rockies it's much more enjoyable to ski low angle with kick wax and higher angle with skins.

When anyone mentions klister I see desert mountain bike trails and 70 degree weather.

You guys are right that being in the mountains is what it's all about, but when I read a review about YOUR snow and don't understand that MY snow is different then maybe I end up on a less enjoyable ski because people think I'm too stupid to figure out how to crayon and cork some kick wax. Not like kick wax is launching shuttles in a cold consistent snowpack.

Dude, you don't get it, theres a new sheriff in town. Do some research on these skis. They are not in the same catagory as putzing around with some waxed toothpicks on your favorite golf course but they compare favorably with ANY BC ski out there on the up with skins and on the down skiing real steeps and mixed snow conditions. Plus they have the ability to climb and glide enough to smoke your buds on the approaches and runouts as well as short little pushes to get some extra vert that you would pass up if you had to reskin.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Dude, you don't get it, theres a new sheriff in town. Do some research on these skis. They are not in the same catagory as putzing around with some waxed toothpicks on your favorite golf course but they compare favorably with ANY BC ski out there on the up with skins and on the down skiing real steeps and mixed snow conditions. Plus they have the ability to climb and glide enough to smoke your buds on the approaches and runouts as well as short little pushes to get some extra vert that you would pass up if you had to reskin.

This.

Last tour I was on w/BigSteve we had a bit of logging road for approach/deproach. Of course this road had a bit of up and down in places on it. On the way out Steve could just free his heels and blow on by those of us with flat bases who had to herringbone the short uphills.

Lots of tours around here have logging road approaches and these skis make a lot of sense for that and for ridge running to get to the next bowl without having to mess with your skins.

I was the guy completely baffled by the term "waxless." I was like "WTF? Why wouldn't you still wax those skis just because they have some fishscale pattern under foot?" I have zero experience with nordic skiing, though given how many good looking women participate I think I should probably take it up.

[AlpiNord]

My back yard (and snow) is different than your back yard and pattern based skis increase my options considerably:

This is just a glimpse of accessible terrain. The 'peak' to the right is 1500 higher and 1 3/4 miles away. I can drive the mile to the forest service road through the notch on the left or simple step in at the back door and tool to and drop down the valley and back up the other side to the ridge and ski the northern slope and then slog through the notch back. With my current patterned based skis and skins combo I can be in the 'basin' (flat section before the final ascent) in 45 minutes or so. With just skins and better skis it takes around an hour before the climb. Then the slog back.

I'm guessing with skis like the Vectors or Chargers with less skin use I could shave a minimum of 15 minutes (and possibly 30 minutes) off the 3 mile loop and have more fun in shallower and variable snows AND have a longer season, more frequently in smaller windows of opportunity....and keep my growing ass in better shape for both higher up tours and keep my legs in shape for skiing in general (same for skate skiing the field when it gets an inch of corn over crust). It's simply about getting out more often in some capacity, on skis on snow than about making turns.

When I went to a local outdoor shop to check out the Vectors and bumped into a friend. Our consensus/hope was that skins will be a thing of the past in the not too distant future. Who knows what it'll be...nano technology, sharks skin???? From the
What if ski bases were made like shark skin? thread and Sharklet:

[Crampedon]

I had some fishscale skis in 1975 I used for zooming around the deeply snow packed roads of Connecticut as a kid, but that was before global warming. Now the ponds we skated on starting in October don't freeze all winter.

But the skis worked great! I would hope modern technology would make them even better.

[bbense]

BB, do you think the Guide's whacky bevel problem delayed the acceptance of fat fishscales. Those bevels were awful, augmented by the super soft flex.

Yes, the difference in those skis when you fix the bevel is night and day on hard snow. After skiing a fixed pair you understand how somebody could have skied K2 with them.

[sb]

I couldn't agree more. Once I got Karhu Guides, I was completely sold on the concept and have done pretty much all my BC skiing over the last 5 seasons on fishscale skis. Really wish they made the Vector in a 190cm version.

+1

With minor edge work I have loved my Guides for several years now. If they would shit out a 190 VectorBC I would slap some tech binders on them so fast and poop for some Ones or Mercs.

[Chugachjed]

I like the idea but I feel like I'm better served by regular skis and skins with kick wax in the bag.