Voile BC Vector waxless base

[le dog]

There was another thread some days ago (Vector vs DPS Wailer 99) and someone mentioned the waxless base of the Vector. My question is: how much grip can you expect from that base? Ok for slight inclines or will do even for something more substantial? Can you stick the skins if the need arises in any case (even if the ski has that special base)?
These skis look interesting for some mellow terrain with ups and downs where you don't want to stop every three minutes for putting skins on and off.
What do you guys think?
Grazie.

PS
First powder turns of the season here in the Dolomites (I am happy).

[superdigg]

Have you read this and this?

[le dog]

Superdigg thanks for your suggestions. I did read them (I am a Backcountry mag's subscriber), but the Vectors seem (to me) a real freeride light/touring ski - so very different from those tested in BCM - that can actually climb. Would you consider using those skis with, say, a pair of Dynafit and if so, for medium to intermediate terrain, one needs to carry the skins just in case or the fish scale base is good enough to propel you up to decent slopes?
A lightweight, mildy rockered, agile and with good floatation ski that can climb (sans skins) seems too good to be true.....

[AlpiNord]

My .02 cents regarding 'rugged touring' rigs is that you might be surprised how versatile a light weight, yet capable rig like this would be with Dynafits. On rolling and mellow terrain you can cover ground fast and when you need skins, you have the option. The snow type affects grip (ie, loose, fresh snow slips, while crust grips) and depending on time of year, snow type and other factors the steepness will be variable. If I did not already have some Atomic Chugaches (with Silvrettas and Targas), I'd really enjoy having a pair of these or the wider Rossis.

[superdigg]

Really curious about the BCs myself. The Rossi BC125 has the same bases/pattern and from what I have read they have a limit somewhere between 10-20 degrees depending on the snow. Fishscales tend to work best on firm, wet snow (ie spring conditions).

For rolling terrain and flatish approaches they should be a blast.

Wouldn't hesitate a second putting dynafiddlers on them. Take a look at the Wildsnow review here/.

I'd stuff skins in the backpack though.

[AlpiNord]

A couple comments in the Wildsnow article mentioned 'spring and summer rig'. I'd add early season to the list. With the first snows, it's nice to have a solid and versatile XC touring rig just to get out on low angle stuff with no turning expectations. If there is skiable snow, then you can. If not it still makes for a good tour.

[Shorty_J]

It was me that mentioned this ski in the thread you mentioned, and while I think it would be great for rolling terrain, I would suspect it's vertical pitch climbing limit would quickly be reached. But I se no reason you couldn't put skins on them as well, for steeper pitches.

[le dog]

Thanks guys for your advice. I definitely agree with Alpinord when he says that the waxless Vectors could be a viable (and functional) option for those days when you want to explore mellow terrain and if there is some pow to be found, that's awesome, if not, you can just enjoy the scenery. Definitely I am getting old (45 years old) but I am not always in the mood of using my deep pow/gnarly lines sticks and a pair of skis that can rip on the downs but still be able to ascend without skins, sounds quite interesting. I have some woods here around that I have in mind that would make for some fantastic exploration with skis like the Vectors.

[gunniride]

Since many of us are getting away from a "one ski quiver" notion, and moving toward a dynafit rig and resort board, I don't see a reason not to put fish scales on any BC only ski. Most people are mentioning- "probably good for light tours, rolling terrain"- why not any tour, short of using a snowmobile? I personally hate having skins on flat terrain, even with the glide of mohair. When it comes down to the option of skating for your approach, or slogging along with skins, it would be great instead to kick and glide ala nordic style.

[AlpiNord]

Since many of us are getting away from a "one ski quiver" notion, and moving toward a dynafit rig and resort board, I don't see a reason not to put fish scales on any BC only ski. Most people are mentioning- "probably good for light tours, rolling terrain"- why not any tour, short of using a snowmobile? I personally hate having skins on flat terrain, even with the glide of mohair. When it comes down to the option of skating for your approach, or slogging along with skins, it would be great instead to kick and glide ala nordic style.

Yes and no. The patterned base skis sound and glide differently. There are also kicker skins that may be a good option to consider with BC skis, BTW....but the simplicity of pattern based skis is super convenient. They may not be perfect for every snow condition, but you can always motor around on them. I live at 7600 and ski out the back door, mostly on a lighter BC NNN rig which is very convenient and gets me on snow and a workout more often. Great for getting and staying in shape and small windows of opportunity to get out. The 'rugged touring' rig is great for thin years as well and long slogs, but I do not entirely trust the ski's durability in heavy mank and breakable crust. It is an excellent 'fit' in a range of ski touring options.

[GeezerSteve]

Fishscales tend to work best on firm, wet snow (ie spring conditions)

Fishscales on cambered XC skis definitely glide much better on warm wet snow. They usually grip fine in cold fine grained snow but, generally, glide slower as the snowpack gets colder and finer grained.

Vector BC is a very cool idea (and I might get a pair one of these days) but I'd prefer more camber because the supersoft camber/waxless pattern combo will be very slow in most mid-winter conditions. Expect stallouts while your buds with regular bases are gliding and getting in a few more turns. IME, the most functional waxless skis have lots of underfoot camber so that the pattern doesn't dig in too much when both feet are weighted. Per hand flex, the BC 125 seems to have considerably more camber, although nonetheless softer than any waxless ski I've ever seen (other than the Karhu Guide/Madshus Annum, which are notoriously slow gliders). My guess is that the BC125 would be the more useful meadow skipper cuz it has at least a wee bit of camber and stiffer tail. It'd be nice to have the opportunity to try out the Vector and the BC125.

And then there's the noise: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz

IME kicker skins with the metal (snowplow) ramp suck. OTOH, a 2/3 length 1-1/2" to 2-1/2" wide skin that hooks on the tip and ends under heel (blunt the end of the skin) works great for low angle meadow skipping and logging road schleps. I'd bet that in some conditions (colder, finer grained) they'd glide faster than the Vector BC.

Yo Terry, when are you going to import that waxless ptex pattern from Europe? I'll buy some for retrofitting.

[AlpiNord]

Ha. The ones from Europe come on skis only, AFAIK. Hopefully, later this season I can practice some mad science on base repair patches and burn in patterns with the soldering iron.

[shirk]

Doesn't the notorious meadow skipper in Utah that makes art like patterns spooning his own tracks use DIY fishscale bases? Cuts them in himself? I recall Trackhead maybe also experimenting with home cutting some fishscales for meadow skipping.

[GeezerSteve]

Terry, I got the notion from reading this review in BC mag:

Nothing special or proprietary about the base: it's a basic, overlapping fish scale, easily sourced in Europe. (The same exact base appears on Rossignol's BC 125, which debuted last season.)

As we've discussed in another thread, I've experiemented with a vertical mill and a soldering iron. My DIY efforts don't work as well as patterned bases on my hippy stix. Back to the shop : )

[le dog]

Has anybody actually tried the Vectors? Alpinord why are you saying that you do not trust the skis' durability in mank and heavy snow? Durability as in being robust products or you mean something else? As far as I can tell, these skis are the regular Vectors which got some pretty good reviews from those who used them, in this case the only difference lies in the fishscale base. And Big Steve, yeah, the narrow skin, I undertand that, did something like that when I splitboarded but still I think it is a PITA to put skins on and remove them every other moment.
As far as the waxless idea seems super cool, there must be some major drawback I am not aware of. Otherwise my Wailer 112 would have that base for sure and everybody would be happy....Where is the catch?

[le dog]

Big Steve, ok, now I get it. Still if I have the chance I would love to try one of those skis.

[harpo-the-skier]

Another disadvantage of a wax less base is u can't stone grind them without losing the wl base.

Skinny skins and kicker skins are a pia. They don't glide, climb, or stay on your skis well. Just my experience.

[AlpiNord]

Guess I need to go to Europe Steve.

I was referring to my Atomics. They are not as robust as other skis and are lightweight. They ski well, but in the wrong circumstances they feel like they could break.

[Wolfmansbro]

I've thought a lot about a waxless fish scale base. Someone mentioned it, but has anyone tried a combo of a waxless ski with a ski crampon?

It sure would be nice to ditch the skins and in the spring time just throw the crampons on quick if it gets steep or icy.

[timmaio]

A thought on rolling tours. We kick wax our skis when it is flat and you can get up almost as much a slope with good kick wax(if the conditions are right) as waxless.

I used to have a pair of Karhu Guide XCD skis, the waxless pattern interfered with the edges underfoot and meant I had no edgehold there, only on the tips and tails. No matter what I tried to sharpen the edges I couldn't get anything useful. But in powder they were lots of fun and good for hut trip type stuff.

I've used kicker skins on my Karhu Spire BC skis(88 underfoot) and it doesn't work as well as I'd like. I think a wider kicker skin would work better. As I said, we kick wax until it is too steep for that, then put the full length skins on.

[GeezerSteve]

timmaio, kick wax works great for your cold fine-grained continental snow, but waxing in the PNW -- where a typical mid-winter tour has snow temps ranging from 34F wet pow down low to 22F drier pow up top -- is not practical. Kick waxing for freshly fallen snow 1 or 2 degrees either side of freezing (common in the WA Cascades) is very tricky. I did a 30K classic race a few weeks ago on freshly fallen 30F snow with new snow falling at 31F. I was on VR50 (8 layers), which worked okay in the tracks but caked up when I stepped out. Others were on VR 45, gliding better but having difficulty up the steeper hills. Others were on Toko yellow or something else. My babe was on a pair of zero skis. On a typical PNW day tour, it's not unusual to start in VR65 conditions, then climb up through VR55, then VR50, then VR 45, then VR40. If you have the right kick wax on the beginning of a typical PNW mid-winter tour, you will likely quickly climb to a zone where snow will cake an inch thick. I really love skiing klister on my classic race skis, but klister + skins = Hell. You guys in Steamboat can often put on Blue or Blue X and ski all fucking day!

[bbense]

Thanks guys for your advice. I definitely agree with Alpinord when he says that the waxless Vectors could be a viable (and functional) option for those days when you want to explore mellow terrain and if there is some pow to be found, that's awesome, if not, you can just enjoy the scenery. Definitely I am getting old (45 years old) but I am not always in the mood of using my deep pow/gnarly lines sticks and a pair of skis that can rip on the downs but still be able to ascend without skins, sounds quite interesting. I have some woods here around that I have in mind that would make for some fantastic exploration with skis like the Vectors.

You need skins for anything steep enough to be fun skiing down, unless you're willing to set a very low angle switchback track. The easier it is to make a snowball, the better these skis will climb.
Calling these XC skis seems a bit silly to me. They are backcountry skiing skis period. If you are looking to poke around in the woods, I think the Madhus skis are a much better choice. The Annum will ski fine in anything up to about a foot or so of powder, but are light and skinny enough for at least shuffle'n'hope.

Voile Vector BC's have a place, but I think you'll have the most fun if you think of them a true "earn your turns" ski with some extra capabilities. Unless you're out there to explicitly to make turns, I think there are much better and cheaper skis for the XC skiing with turns of opportunity.

[bbense]

Since many of us are getting away from a "one ski quiver" notion, and moving toward a dynafit rig and resort board, I don't see a reason not to put fish scales on any BC only ski.

I have been an advocate of this for years for the mixed snow of the Sierra. If you live somewhere where the snow conditions are more stable, ( i.e. dry and cold ) kick waxing works far better than any waxless ski.

[bbense]

I've thought a lot about a waxless fish scale base. Someone mentioned it, but has anyone tried a combo of a waxless ski with a ski crampon?

It sure would be nice to ditch the skins and in the spring time just throw the crampons on quick if it gets steep or icy.

Yes, I've tried that. You still need at least kicker skins and ski crampons are best for going across, not straight up. It can work pretty well in certain conditions, but once the snow softens up you really need skins to go up anything steep.

[bbense]

I used to have a pair of Karhu Guide XCD skis, the waxless pattern interfered with the edges underfoot and meant I had no edgehold there, only on the tips and tails. No matter what I tried to sharpen the edges I couldn't get anything useful. But in powder they were lots of fun and good for hut trip type stuff.

Almost every pair of Karhu Guides had a really bad edge bevel problem. Fixing this makes a huge difference in how well the ski works on harder snow. Their bad edge grip has nothing to do with the waxless base, but the 10 to 15 degree edge bevel on the middle part of the ski.

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...r=asc&start=30