2012 Montana Conditions, Stoke and Whatev Thread

**Shredeagle** · 05-20-2025, 01:30 PM

Ha. Yes! That was quite the day. For some reason it got me itching to get back out skiing again. Hopefully I can talk one of the kids into driving to the Beartooths for something a bit more straight forward.

**yeahman** · 05-20-2025, 10:27 PM

^^Way to get after it boyz!

Saw seven grizzlies in the park today. Snowed and rained off and on. Loving that camper heater tonight!

**yeahman** · 05-29-2025, 12:33 PM

These guys earn their fucking money.

**Bunion 2020** · 05-29-2025, 02:22 PM

Yes they do. A far cry from when Doppelmayr would send 1-3 guys who could lead a crew and then hire a bunch of ski bums who think building a ski lift will be "cool".

**406** · 05-29-2025, 02:37 PM

Very impressive, any idea how much a lift like this costs Boyne? The must have some big loans from when rates were low, Im still shocked at how much they are upgrading last few years. Glad there will be something parallel to swifty, but I really am not a fan of gondolas and especially with the kids.

**yeahman** · 05-30-2025, 09:22 AM

.

**yeahman** · 05-30-2025, 09:29 AM

That's a really good question and I've wondered about it myself. Where is all the money coming from to do these massive upgrades? Are they really going that far into debt? Somehow I doubt it. There has to be some private equity involved that's helping to fund all this. I was under the impression something like that happened with the new Madison 8 lift. Other interests (One&Only?) helped fund it because it benefited them and their guests. I'd love to know the inside story of all the financing. I think they're betting big that Big Sky will be a climate change survivor, or at least last longer than a lot of other resorts, and the value will just go up inevitably. They are probably right.Anyway, now they'll have redundancy on the Big Sky side, so the days of Swifty being down and screwing up the whole program are over. Yay. All that remains is to get the same redundancy on the Moonlight side, which is supposedly in the works. A lift from the Moonlight base to the top of Lone Tree would be an awesome improvement. Although I guess it wouldn't solve the problem of getting back around to the Big Sky side if Mad 8 were down. Can't get there from the top of Lone Tree.

**byates1** · 05-30-2025, 07:24 PM

Rode the lift w this old timer couple yrs ago. Been on the same skis for 50 years. 50 years.

Rad

**Trackhead** · 05-30-2025, 09:12 PM

Dude is the epitome of “live simply”. Love it.

**mcski** · 05-30-2025, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by byates[emoji637

;[emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji638][emoji638][emoji638][emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]]

Rode the lift w this old timer couple yrs ago. Been on the same skis for [emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] years. [emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]] years.

Rad

You can’t leave us hanging w his gear set up! Were the boots same vintage?

Fifty years ago would put us back to Nineteen Seventy five. And that’s about the last time I saw Kneissls on snow!

**byates1** · 05-31-2025, 07:11 AM

He's a Teton pass local. Been there foreveri think. Uses science lab goggles. As real as it gets

**toast2266** · 06-01-2025, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by 406

Very impressive, any idea how much a lift like this costs Boyne? The must have some big loans from when rates were low, Im still shocked at how much they are upgrading last few years. Glad there will be something parallel to swifty, but I really am not a fan of gondolas and especially with the kids.

The 6 pack chair that whitefish installed a few years ago was about $10M, so I'd guess a fancy gondola would be maybe $15-20M?

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**byates1** · 06-01-2025, 12:27 PM

Solid anti Bozeman rant from reddit:

Because for years and years (and especially on this sub) people screamed and moaned about regulation and how things like parking requirements, open space and affordable housing regulations were holding back the poor devolopers and kneecapping the supply. People angrily squawked about suppy and demand as if a 96 level econ "fundamental" could adequately describe the reasons for an afordability crisis like ours.

The real truth is that if we were ever going to fix any of the actual causes for the housing crisis it certianly wasn't coming from building our way out of it. If that were the case we would have achived it 30 years ago. So the developers, realtors, and SWMBIA stacked and attacked local government, cried foul at any attempts to create affordable housing, cried, whined, sued (and won several times when they didnt get what they wanted). The same greedy pigs used "sprawl" to justify infill with development nobody on a local salary could dream of buying, and completely changed the downtown landscape--destroying the last of that "old bozeman feel." Meanwhile the sprawl continued as construction workers built more houses for more construction workers to move here to build more houses for yet more construction workers to build castles for the rich assholes in the YC.

At some point speculators, investors, rich out of state assholes and private equity started buying up more of the supply than people moving here to "wOrK, liVe & PlaY!!!" They saw a golden goose ready to lay them a passive income and a seemingly endless supply of coastal amenity and lifetyle sheep ready to be shorn of city rents in a place where you could build at country prices. Of course these people brought out of state incomes twice the local average, a pile of cash to buy sight unseen and slowly but surely priced the locals out into neighboring cities like Belgrade, Manhattan, Three Forks and Livingston where prices also steadily climbed.

Then as Bozeman continued its monthly accolades in national publications as "top ten places to hurrr de derrp your jerp derpt nerdle de duuurrrup" the cost of a 3 bedroom house eventually crossed over the affordability gap finally putting that nail in the coffin of the dream of home ownership on a prevailing local wage. You could still make it happen on 2 incomes if you could find affordable childcare and wrench on your own car, but for most that was just chasing the dragon. Low interest rates kept the closings rolling and the boomers bought their third houses at 2.3% fixed rate. How nice. Waded made sure she did her part too. Turn a land grant school into a destination college for rich kids from Minnesota and Washington to come ski. Double the undergrad class but only bulld a couple hundred new dorm rooms. Meh...the housing supply in Bozeman will be fine. GO CATS!

It shouldn't have come as much of a surprise then when a nasty bug took the world by storm that Montana and Bozeman were already on the map. The covid wave was the final death rattle for this place. Remote workers, blue state tax dodging MAGA racists and digital nomads poured in buying every overpriced unit from Holloran's SoDoSoPas to River Rock in Belgrade. And when there wasnt anything left they even built thier castles half way up the mountain on the bridger foothills to thumb thier noses at your broke ass. They bought (and closed up) every large ranch, large inholding, parcel and easement. They bought our elk and blamed it on wolves and the environmentalists....and we were dumb enough to keep licking their boots while Gianforte shot treed cats and trapped wolves with his billionare friends. Sporting time chaps! Cheerio and pip pip!

All that growth, all those new people fleeing high taxes and diveristy, all those shiny new tacomas with GFC tents and 10k mountain bikes on the back...They all came wanting a better quality of life. Maybe one that they could afford. It came at a cost though. Especially for anyone from here. Becuase the truth is that the traffic is as bad as ever, property taxes higher than most blue states per capita, you gotta park on the highway for a bridger snow day, the elk are gone, your fishing spot is blown up and you have to drive 2 hours to find a camping spot on the weekend. Main street looks more like Pearl street in Boulder where all the national chains hold a corner. A beer costs $7 and a burger $30. Yet wages are shit, NWE just gave themselves a 3rd raise in 2 years, the eggs are still expensive and mortgage rates are still 6.8%. Bozeman is getting a new (deserved) reputation: a snooty, expensive wanna-be Jackson hole that you cant afford. So the apartments sit empty and fewer bright eyed newcomers trickle over the hill to fork out 60% of thier monthly income to pay for some out of states rich asshole's passive income while they mountain bike, ski and fish. Just remeber this: Private equity killed the american dream and were too stupid to admit its dead..

**S_jenks** · 06-01-2025, 02:03 PM

On the nail.

I grew up in a little town on the NW side of Flathead lake, and saw a small (formerly logging) town be gutted and turned into a wannabe-ritzy “folk town” for the rich to enjoy. I saw that through the 90s-00s, locals being bought up, pushed out, and then gaslighted by out-of-staters. Many were nice to your face, but holy fuck did I come to hate the people of my home town. Petty, myopic, inward looking, and fearful of anything from the outside world. When I graduated HS, I was excited to get out of a place in the midst of being gutted.

So I ended up going in-state to MSU in Bozeman, and what I saw there was… a town being gutted. But this time with a rigor and efficiency that over 6 years completely transformed the town.

I made lifelong friends there and hold some of my most cherished memories with them on that ridge. And we all still see other now again, cracking a cold beer to reminisce about a time and place that have long been forsaken in the name of profit seeking selfishness.

**skaredshtles** · 06-01-2025, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by S_jenks

On the nail.

I grew up in a little town on the NW side of Flathead lake, and saw a small (formerly logging) town be gutted and turned into a wannabe-ritzy “folk town” for the rich to enjoy. I saw that through the 90s-00s, locals being bought up, pushed out, and then gaslighted by out-of-staters. Many were nice to your face, but holy fuck did I come to hate the people of my home town. Petty, myopic, inward looking, and fearful of anything from the outside world. When I graduated HS, I was excited to get out of a place in the midst of being gutted.

So I ended up going in-state to MSU in Bozeman, and what I saw there was… a town being gutted. But this time with a rigor and efficiency that over 6 years completely transformed the town.

I made lifelong friends there and hold some of my most cherished memories with them on that ridge. And we all still see other now again, cracking a cold beer to reminisce about a time and place that have long been forsaken in the name of profit seeking selfishness.

Our country is based on profit-seeking selfishness. It's a feature, not a bug.

**Bunion 2020** · 06-02-2025, 06:50 AM

I blame the children.

I have 11th graders who misspell common words and struggle putting together a simple paragraph. They can't do much without the help of AI. They need constant structure. Anytime I'm relaxed, the room ends up a mess. Always coming in late, and the saddest part of all: they have no intellectual curiosity about the world. Just eat, sleep, phone. No self discipline and desire for life. This is something I can't relate to: I've always wanted a driver's license, make money, see the world, date, work on my car and so on... but these kids have levels of apathy I've never seen before. Even when I take their phone away, they'll just put their head on their desk. They never try and figure anything out on their own unless I give them the answer word by word, and even then the worksheet ends up on the floor. Even basic jobs require you to show up on time and not make a mess, but they're not yet at that point. Life is already super hard as it is even if you're smart / educated... I genuinely worry for them. There was this one student who left water all over his desk / over the book. It's like he wasn't able to put the water bottle to his mouth and drink without spilling it everywhere. I know most kids grow up overtime, but this recent crop of ipad kids seem like a different breed of person. Everyone always talks about classroom management... but the real world isn't going to hold their hand every step of the way. It's like I see kindergarten behaviors in 16 year old... soon to be men and women. It's strange.

**byates1** · 06-02-2025, 07:03 AM

Yeah that's frightening

**Trackhead** · 06-02-2025, 07:25 AM

Rural Montana is working for me. Lots of older folks leaving Bozeman to move to my little town. Sell their homes for $$, build pretty sweet houses here. Most people are still afraid of small rural Montana towns. Can’t handle the perceived politics. Utah used to be like that with the Mormon factor, now nobody cares. Bozeman was similar in early days, just rural/hick enough to keep people fearful of moving there.

No OvRlanding Sprinters with prayer flags in rural ranch town here. No Botox shops. None of that shit. Empty mountains, solitude, mostly humble people. But yeah, some rednecks, so hopefully people keep being fearful of that and stay away.

**Bunion 2020** · 06-02-2025, 08:06 AM

The gentrification/development/improvement/ruination of Bozeman is not unique. Go to any small city/big town that hits the sweet spot of having most of the amenities that are desirable and a good quality of life and you will see the same cause/effect.

**toast2266** · 06-02-2025, 08:16 AM

^^^ Yup. And it's only going to increase as more jobs become detached from any specific location. In a couple decades, I think we'll also see a lot of climate change driven transplants to the intermountain west.

I think it's also fairly predictable that towns in Montana will act like this isn't happening and do little, if anything, to address the issues brought about by a growing population. They will, however, continue to proudly proclaim that they're not like Jackson as they become exactly like Jackson.

**Trackhead** · 06-02-2025, 08:18 AM

Yup and yup two per above.

Our hick town housing prices are mostly based on Bozeman people leaving/putting pressure on market here. This is a low income town with high housing prices and few good jobs.

**ticketchecker** · 06-02-2025, 08:19 AM

All sounds like here in Portland, ME without the coast.

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**The Nuclear Option** · 06-02-2025, 08:21 AM

As someone with an actual MT birth certificate, I would support everyone moving back to within 500 miles of their place of birth.Go on, you first!

**skaredshtles** · 06-02-2025, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by toast2266

<snip> I think it's also fairly predictable that towns in Montana will act like this isn't happening and do little, if anything, to address the issues brought about by a growing population.

I have got it on *very* good authority that the free market will take care of that.