Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Except that power generation - barring shit like the monsoon boons, is generally just dirty shit or leading to others buying dirty power, this hastening general demise. It's not like they created power grids where there weren't any. If you can show receipts of where they're directly responsible for grid upgrades and paid for it, I'll eat crow.

In my hypothetical, feel free to assume the equipment is tearing up ecologically sensitive areas.

I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that their sustained demand for electricity has led to some increased generation capacity.

[schuss]

In my hypothetical, feel free to assume the equipment is tearing up ecologically sensitive areas.

I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that their sustained demand for electricity has led to some increased generation capacity.

Like the crypto miners that moved to Texas, started loading up the grid then demand payment for turning it down during periods of electrical stress.
Nothing about crypto is anything but greed from what I've seen (barring some of the devs who are truly just in it for the tech exploration). Expecting them to be altruistic in any form is ignoring everything about the crypto industry since it got big.

Even look in this thread - even byates admits he's just pumping because he wants his lottery ticket to pay off.

[Mustonen]

The incentives ARE interesting. In the example shera posted, an incentive was created to better manage methane emissions where none had existed previously. There was one upthread that brought investment and infrastructure to otherwise underfunded and off the grid wildlife refuges so miners could take advantage of hydro power (iirc?). At the least, it exposes some opportunities to better align incentives with environmental goals.

It’s still effort and consumption to create tokens with no intrinsic value beside scarcity and no path to wealth creation that isn’t leaching it off of value created elsewhere. Crypto wealth is just redistributing wealth, value is not created, and inasmuch as it consumes substantial energy it’s unconscionable. But we’ve been over that ad nauseam.

Disappointing that otherwise reasonable voices like shera peddle bullshit like “WEF recognizes the environmental benefits of crypto” or whatever.

[leftfield]

That’s miners relationship with the power grid. They’re just doing useless shit with the power, and then letting others buy it when there’s actually a good use for it. Could just not waste it on useless shit in the first place.

When it comes to increasing grid reliability, it's more important that the excess electricity is used(even if it is wasted) than what it is used for, no?

[Mustonen]

When it comes to increasing grid reliability, it's more important that the excess electricity is used(even if it is wasted) than what it is used for, no?

Or, like, you could just have a capacity and reliability standard and not burn that coal, natural gas, etc when you don’t need it. That is a thing you can do too. That’s what is actually “more important.” You don’t have to use it to create digital beanie babies.

[leftfield]

Like the crypto miners that moved to Texas, started loading up the grid then demand payment for turning it down during periods of electrical stress.

I think there's more nuance to this. My understanding is that miners hedge their risk against such scenarios with complex financial derivatives, like the ones electric companies use with each other and are used across energy markets more broadly.

[leftfield]

Or, like, you could just have a capacity and reliability standard and not burn that coal, natural gas, etc when you don’t need it. That is a thing you can do too. That’s what is actually “more important.”

Sorry, not sure I understand what you're advocating here. More and better flexible generation technologies?

[Mustonen]

Sorry, not sure I understand what you're advocating here. More and better flexible generation technologies?

No. Excess capacity (it’s not really excess, which is the point) can be built in without any of that. It just costs money and the incentives aren’t lined up appropriately. Crypto exposes that, but it isn’t logically or economically the best solution to it.

[Mustonen]

I think there's more nuance to this. My understanding is that miners hedge their risk against such scenarios with complex financial derivatives, like the ones electric companies use with each other and are used across energy markets more broadly.

Haha

Hahahhahahaha



Also, though…. So? I don’t understand the relevance to the discussion. They pump and dump with nuance?

[leftfield]

What do you mean by 'excess capacity'- infrastructure? What kind?

Also, though…. So? I don’t understand the relevance to the discussion. They pump and dump with nuance?

Speaking of relevance to the discussion, clever meme. It's like I'm looking in a mirror.

Separately addressed Schuss how miners profit from turning off. It has nothing to do with pumping/dumping crypto.

[Mustonen]

What do you mean by 'excess capacity'- infrastructure? What kind?

Clever meme, it's like I'm looking in a mirror.



Separately addressed Schuss how miners profit from turning off. It has nothing to do with pumping/dumping crypto.

Yes, infrastructure. The power generation kind. You don’t have to continuously operate at capacity.

I was just using Pump and dump as a colloquialism for crypto BS, didn’t mean it literally but poor choice of phrase, granted. “Complex financial derivatives” did make me laugh out loud, though.

[schuss]

I think there's more nuance to this. My understanding is that miners hedge their risk against such scenarios with complex financial derivatives, like the ones electric companies use with each other and are used across energy markets more broadly.

Not really. ERCOT made direct payments to them to curtail, so in a sense they're holding the capacity hostage.
One link of many on the direct payments and some attempts to investigate it:
https://www.markey.senate.gov/news/p...o-cryptominers

[Mustonen]

Not really. ERCOT made direct payments to them to curtail, so in a sense they're holding the capacity hostage.
One link of many on the direct payments and some attempts to investigate it:
https://www.markey.senate.gov/news/p...o-cryptominers

“Complex financial derivatives.” Too much to get into here and you probably wouldn’t understand it.

[mcphee]

Oh cool, a new grifter in the thread.

[schuss]

“Complex financial derivatives.” Too much to get into here and you probably wouldn’t understand it.

What if my buzzwords are more complicated, does that mean I win? Just trying to understand the rules here.

[m2711c]

I don’t think complicated buzzwords are enough, I believe they also need to be complex…




fact.

[Tri-Ungulate]

All this exchange hypothecation and degenerate trading firm leverage is making a great case for BTC's long-term value proposition. It's the ultimate digital bearer instrument. No trust required.

Complex enough for ya?

[stalefish3169]

Bullshit. It's a drain on grids that doesn't need to be there. It is pure waste in service of greed.

You guys need to be open to new ways of thinking.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4347220

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...054?via%3Dihub

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[Mustonen]

That’s all just more about incentives. It’s not a new way of thinking, it’s been acknowledged plenty, even in the last couple of pages. And for what it is it’s interesting and an indictment of our current incentives. What it is not is some intimation that bitcoin is actually good for the environment or the grid in any unique way that couldn’t better be solved in more direct ways.

[schuss]

You guys need to be open to new ways of thinking.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4347220

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...054?via%3Dihub

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I take the current realities of stuff like ERCOT hostage taking over magical unicorn dust theories.
Using Bitcoin mining to save the planet is like saying you should eat more of a specific way to lose weight - theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.
In order for any of it to work, you need altruism on the part of crypto miners and a willingness to give up profit. Up until now, nearly 100% of participants have been chasing pure returns at the expense of all else. Why do you think everyone fell for the Celsius con?
Like I said, I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong, but when the best you have to offer are magical theory papers instead of people actively engaged in doing that at a large scale - it means it ain't happening.

[Mustonen]

Using Bitcoin mining to save the planet is like saying you should eat more of a specific way to lose weight - theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.

It’s more like saying if you eat enough donuts you’ll incentivize the donut makers to invest in healthier ways to make donuts so they don’t kill their customers. And maybe they’ll also diversify into offering healthy fruit smoothies too and they’ll make donuts in the jungle where there were no donuts before and with those donut sales they’ll save the rhinos. And the World Health Organization recognizes donut makers for using all the bacon grease to fry donuts and that’s a lot better for you than just eating leftover bacon grease like custard. And if there’s a national bread shortage they’ll stop making donuts for a minute so we can make wheat bread For The Children. And isn’t that just a fantastic way to lose weight?!? It’s all fucking absurd but in the case of crypto it’s offered up with a straight face.

Just leave it at “donuts are delicious” and we can talk about whether they’re as delicious as cookies or cake and whether your hoarding of boxes of Krispy Kreme is going to pay off when they are the ultimate snack in 10 years and feed your snack cravings forever.

[subtle plague]

Hmmm Donuts......I want mine to the moon.

[frorider]

It’s more like saying if you eat enough donuts you’ll incentivize the donut makers to invest in healthier ways to make donuts so they don’t kill their customers. And maybe they’ll also diversify into offering healthy fruit smoothies too and they’ll make donuts in the jungle where there were no donuts before and with those donut sales they’ll save the rhinos. And the World Health Organization recognizes donut makers for using all the bacon grease to fry donuts and that’s a lot better for you than just eating leftover bacon grease like custard. And if there’s a national bread shortage they’ll stop making donuts for a minute so we can make wheat bread For The Children. And isn’t that just a fantastic way to lose weight?!? It’s all fucking absurd but in the case of crypto it’s offered up with a straight face.
.

Impressive.

[skaredshtles]

<snip> donut makers for using all the bacon grease to fry donuts

Wait.

[stalefish3169]

I take the current realities of stuff like ERCOT hostage taking over magical unicorn dust theories.
Using Bitcoin mining to save the planet is like saying you should eat more of a specific way to lose weight - theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.
In order for any of it to work, you need altruism on the part of crypto miners and a willingness to give up profit. Up until now, nearly 100% of participants have been chasing pure returns at the expense of all else. Why do you think everyone fell for the Celsius con?
Like I said, I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong, but when the best you have to offer are magical theory papers instead of people actively engaged in doing that at a large scale - it means it ain't happening.

ERCOT Hostage? How do you figure. Miners in TX shut down when asked to and ERCOT says BTC is a good thing.

Bitcoiners didn't fall for the Celsius con. Shitcoiners did. No offense to shera.

You'll eat crow, eh? Has there been one person, literally one fucking person, in this thread who has said they were wrong about BTC in January 2018 after they called it dead? I don't think there has been. Somehow most of you smugly took victory laps after BTC crashed to a price 5x higher than when you called it dead.

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