Ukraine

[dunfree]

A bowl of borscht qualifies you for thread expert status

[BmillsSkier]

I’m gonna see if these fun-loving Russian ladies down the bar have any good borscht recipes next time their Grey Goose runs dry.

(Confirmed they’re Russian and work for the googles here and also confirmed that it’s odd they prefer Goose, as overheard from a very loud conversation they had with an even louder Medallion Member).

[t-the-east]

Personally I'm saddened to be watching this unfold in real time

WTF is Vlad's endgame? Does he want Alaska too?

This brings up a good point about Alaska. I can’t help but think about poor Sarah Palin having to watch all this right out of her window

[ill-advised strategy]

Then you should stop using the word “justified” because

And change your location for fuck’s sake, it’s confusing!

[Yukonrider]

And change your location for fuck’s sake, it’s confusing!

Marquette in the summer, west in the winter. But just for you, I'll change it. Yell at me again in May when I have to change it back.

[Yukonrider]

And change your location for fuck’s sake, it’s confusing!

There, happy now?

[summit]

Ukraine can win if they want to fight an insurgency

Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Afghanistan again

Major powers are 0 for 4 in the last 50 years against a countries that are committed to the long insurgent fight, especially if another regional or major power backs the insurgency.

[highangle]

A Russian controlled "demilitarized" Ukraine is exactly what Russia needs if they later wish to threaten Europe, particularly the Baltics, the obvious next move to "get NATO off our doorstep" and also establish a land corridor to the Kaliningrad enclave. This would complete Putin's post Soviet empire dreams.

Problem with that whole line from Putin is that invading and conquering Ukraine is what puts NATO on his doorstep.

It's as much bullshit as every other pretext he's come up with.

[summit]

Problem with that whole line from Putin is that invading and conquering Ukraine puts NATO on his doorstep.

There is no logic.

NATO has been on his doorstep since before he was born, since 1949.

[Timberridge]

This brings up a good point about Alaska. I can’t help but think about poor Sarah Palin having to watch all this right out of her window

Hopefully we saved the bill of sale that we can produce if this ever becomes an issue. I realize Russia only embraces capitalism when it suits their purposes, but to an earlier point I made; we wanted Alaska, we bought it. This seems like a better and more civil way to acquire things.

[highangle]

America invaded and occupied an entire country because a guy that maybe lived there executed an attack against us. How was that justifiable?

For reasons that have nothing to do with Putins aggression on Ukraine, you bad faith Putin propagandist.



It should be obvious that you're supporting the wrong when you have to make such flawed apologetics for Pootie Poot.

You don't really give a flying fuck about flawed arguments though, do you?

[basinbeater]

Putin is scared of Ukraine embracing the west. The hoped for results of Ukrainians for aligning with the eu were many. Reduced corruption, more economic opportunities, more freedom of movement in the west, etc... Several countries that were part of the USSR experienced those things when they realigned with the west post USSR breakup.
For Putin, Ukrainian success in those areas would undermine his standing in Russia. Average Russian people would see a large group of people formerly considered peers obtaining desirable outcomes that they were not seeing, and eventually turn their ire towards their leadership who have not been able to deliver those things.
Smacking down Ukraine and the aggressive propaganda in Russia helps secure Putin's grasp on Russia.
The US should do everything possible to cripple Russia economically and accelerate transition to clean energy for countries that are dependent on Russian oil and gas. This could be a boon for US manufacturers of wind and solar technologies, an engine for clean energy jobs and development. This should be an aggressive 10-20year plan to take the leverage Russia has via oil and gas away. To think that these efforts could have been years further down this road prior to this war without republicans (Bush Trump McConnell, the lot of them) fucking things up every chance they get is depressing.

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[BmillsSkier]

Hopefully we saved the bill of sale that we can produce if this ever becomes an issue. I realize Russia only embraces capitalism when it suits their purposes, but to an earlier point I made; we wanted Alaska, we bought it. This seems like a better and more civil way to acquire things.

I’m sure the deed is jammed into some bootleg safe in the National Archives.

That or in a file at Seward’s mom’s house along with all those unused AOL CD-Roms.

[CarlMega]

It's as much bullshit as every other pretext he's come up with.

Exactly. It kills me when ppl/media don't delineate:

1) the strained, externally communicated 'justification' for invasion
vs
2) the actual strategic motivations for what Putin is trying to achieve

They are completely different. Fuck, the rationalization reasons are not only incompatible with reality, they are simultaneously incompatible with each other. Putin and the Russian government are habitual, trained liars and operate entirely in bad-faith. There never has been an example to the contrary...fuck again, just follow Russia's talking points here over the last year. None of it tracks, all proven to be bullshit.

[dunfree]

Hopefully we saved the bill of sale that we can produce if this ever becomes an issue. I realize Russia only embraces capitalism when it suits their purposes, but to an earlier point I made; we wanted Alaska, we bought it. This seems like a better and more civil way to acquire things.

There’s room for a great alternative history where the guy we wrote the check to - it was written payable on sight to the ambassador - takes the money and blows it all in a weekend. Wikipedia has an image

[summit]

The idea that Russia has any justification to control bordering countries against their will and to use military force to enforce the will of Russia over the will of the people is straight up old school imperialism. If you believe that is justified, then I don't know what the fuck to tell you, but I do have a question: do you like the salty taste when you lick Putin's ball, or are you in it for the money like a good prostitute?

It is next level Soviet style what-aboutism combined with naked illogic to claim "USA was Unjustified in the past, so Putin is Justified today!"

I think Vail takes lessons on this style of discourse when discussing resort overcrowding and understaffing.

[riser4]

The idea that Russia has any justification to control bordering countries against their will and to use military force to enforce the will of Russia over the will of the people is straight up old school imperialism. If you believe that is justified, then I don't know what the fuck to tell you, but I do have a question: do you like the salty taste when you lick Putin's ball, or are you in it for the money like a good prostitute?

It is next level Soviet style what-aboutism combined with naked illogic to claim "USA was Unjustified in the past, so Putin is Justified today!"

I think Vail takes lessons on this style of discourse when discussing resort overcrowding and understaffing.

There it is!

[highangle]

There is no logic.

NATO has been on his doorstep since before he was born, since 1949.

And Pootin is the one who decided NATO was his enemy. NATO and "the West" didn't do that for him.

[Timberridge]

This should be an aggressive 10-20year plan to take the leverage Russia has via oil and gas away. To think that these efforts could have been years further down this road prior to this war without republicans (Bush Trump McConnell, the lot of them) fucking things up every chance they get is depressing.

A 10-20 yr plan solves all their problems? You're an optimistic chap. This shit's been going on in Eastern Europe since the Byzantine Empire days. Maybe earlier than that, but only Wooley was around before that.

[uglymoney]

Super sad day.

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[::: :::]

Attachment 407260

i laffed

[summit]

My last point is that NATO never wanted Ukraine and never would have accepted Ukraine, especially after Crimea was occupied in 2014. Putin could have then leveraged his fait accompli and tincture of time to work with the West as their desire was to focus on the Pacific. But no.... the current invasion is naked aggression and self-interest on Putin's part. Fuck Putin.

[Yukonrider]

And Pootin is the one who decided NATO was his enemy. NATO and "the West" didn't do that for him.

Source?

[summit]

Source?

At one point there was discussion of Russia joining NATO

No Democracy has ever invaded Russia, nor would any ever want to be in a land war in West Asia.



And no, I don't count the short lived and minimalist intervention on behalf of the Whites against the Reds who had sworn to topple global Democracies in favor of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

In its history Russia has been ever the aggressor for the last century, and before that alternately an aggressor and only a defender against totalitarian invaders. And before you try to whatabout me on June 1941, I point you to September 1939 when Russia invaded Poland (for the second time) in partnership with Hitler.

[Hood26]

Source?

NATO’s charter. Read it.