The Cholesterol Thread: HDL v. LDL v. Lipitor - CAGEMATCH

[bagtagley]

I knew those bacon and cheddar omelets from Blue Plate were doing me some good.

Click It!

[Spats]

I knew those bacon and cheddar omelets from Blue Plate were doing me some good.

Click It!

That's an excellent article which everyone needs to read and understand. All the BS we've been fed for decades about how meat and saturated fats are bad for you is exactly wrong and has killed tens of thousands of people...not to mention subjecting them to decades of nasty-ass "health" food. Most doctors are still telling you to do things that will make you fat and kill you.

Also the Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" is out (he's the author of the famous "What If It's All Been A Big Fat Lie?"). He explores all of these issues in great detail:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1400040787/

Bonus article: you really want to eat more fish oil, for about ten different reasons.
http://www.menshealth.com/cda/articl...0012281eac____

[Buster Highmen]

I got the latest cholesterol test results: I'm down to 208 for total cholesterol. No statins, just diet and exercise.

As for other issues:
0) Regarding pharmaceuticals, it's not that plants are "wiser" or any of that moonsmoking shit. But it's also painfully obvious that it's patently pointless to try to describe once again the issue of why natural cures are better than pharmaceutical cure _provided_ the natural ones work. Besides, the only drugs I take are for recreation.

1) What works for one doesn't necessarily work for somebody else. Metabolism is complicated and just like most things, we really understand nothing about it, only randomly related cause and effect.

[splat]

I got the latest cholesterol test results: I'm down to 208 for total cholesterol. No statins, just diet and exercise.

As for other issues:
0) Regarding pharmaceuticals, it's not that plants are "wiser" or any of that moonsmoking shit. But it's also painfully obvious that it's patently pointless to try to describe once again the issue of why natural cures are better than pharmaceutical cure _provided_ the natural ones work. Besides, the only drugs I take are for recreation.

1) What works for one doesn't necessarily work for somebody else. Metabolism is complicated and just like most things, we really understand nothing about it, only randomly related cause and effect.

I just consulted with a doc on my blood test done a year ago. I feel fortunate.
HDL of 41
LDL of 95
Ratio was 4.7 with a high normal of 5
But my triglycerides were 290.

Doc attributed the high triglycerides most likely to a 'familial diet', which is prolly soy Chai tea lattes.

The big thing with pills is their undigestibilty in your liver. Like all those acetaminophen-laced vics I ate for the last year.

[skinnyskier]

290 isn't crazy-high, but its a little up there. It probably doesn't make much difference, since high LDL and low HDL are much more potent risk factors. Really, though, it's the carbs that drive up triglycerides. Like, for example, beer.

Fish oil, on the other hand, drives down the trigs. That's "natural," if avoiding things with a pharmaceutical label is important to you. 2000 mg/day should reduce the triglycerides about 8%.

[Neurodoc]

The big thing with pills is their undigestibilty in your liver. Like all those acetaminophen-laced vics I ate for the last year.

Liver injury associated with acetaminophen overdose (acute or chronic) is an all-or-nothing affair. Either you get liver failure and death, liver failure and complete recovery, or no toxicity at all.

So if you're still alive, your liver is probably fine. Unless you're poisoning it with other substances, such as booze. Even so, the liver has a remarkable ability to regenerate. Which is why alcoholics generally take so long to kill themselves.

[splat]

You mean all that recent hoopla about vicodin wasn't as bad as they made it sound?

[PB]

Think it's some wild SF mushroom dream about the distant future?? Think again!

AI is already here! I give you - medical spam bots.

[Core Shot]

I am compelled to pipe in here since reducing cholesterol has been my professional specialty for a decade-and-a-half. I sold drugs for 23 years. 15 of those years I sold various statin drugs. I've also sold (at the same time) natural health supplements for more than 11 years.


Google 'multiple fibers and plant sterols' and see what pops up first--waiorafiber.


Four very simple things to lower cholesterol without drugs:
*6-10 grams per day of multiple SOLUBLE fibers (not the insoluble fiber from cereals, grains, fruits, and vegetables) Total daily soluble and insoluble fiber should be 25-35g
*1600mg/ day plant sterols (which convert to stanols in the body)
*2000-3000mg per day of mercury-filtered fish oil
*a few hundred mgs of niacin if you can stand it (the flushing that is)

If anyone wants more info on this you can em me at endless.............skistreak........com. Please don't PM as my box fills up too quickly.

is that wairoa your company?

how is that fiber drink "delicious"
seems unpossible

tried 30 days of zocor poison and it aint worth it.
that shit is evil

[Buster Highmen]

OK, this cholesterol shit is still ongoing.

Last year, I had 177 LDL + 50 HDL, so I went on a meat and alcohol free midweek diet and limited weekend boozing to 2 bottles of wine. I did eat cheese and a little bread midweek, but avoided processed wheat and never eat fast food. Lots of peppers, onions, basil, brown rice (rarely white), oatmeal every morning, carrots, 5 avocados a week. Minimized carbos. Read "The Clot Thickens" by Malcolm Kendrick which flags LDL as a poor marker for cardiovascular health.

So I figured I'd get better numbers this time. But no.

I'm 200LDL and 50 HDL, triglycerides are 127 mg/d now and getting pressed into breaking my maxim of "the only drugs I take are recreational" (the docs/nurses usually laugh).

I go in for a cardiac CT scan tomorrow.

School me on this shit again. What are the cholesterol lowering drug options, please.

And heal up Bob.

[yeahman]

Did your parents ever have their cholesterol checked? Could it just be hereditary? Is there a history of heart disease in your family?

My mom had very high cholesterol. No history of heart disease in the family. She took statins and had a strict diet and was never overweight. Dementia got her at 83.

I have high cholesterol. One of my kids has high cholesterol. Neither of us is overweight or eats junk. I'm not taking statins because I think it is just hereditary and with no history of heart disease in the family it does not make sense to me to worry about it. Might regret that decision some day but I do not want to take the drugs so I'll risk it.

[Buster Highmen]

My parents were distant, so no accurate data, but dad died of stroke at 90 but he did do everything doctors told him including statins, warfrin (which nearly killed him with stomach ulcers). Mom got dementia about age 83, but kept going until 94.

I'm 6', 195, which is fat for me. I ride my bike around 40 miles a week.

I have a huDge hangup about going on statins, but I also need to be around for a few more years to be sure tuition gets paid, plus I want to ski until my knees fall off.

That book, The Clot Thickens, dismissed LDL as a marker of heart disease and is super tech about why. I'm just very leery of the medical industry, they nearly killed my dad a bunch of times and eventually disabled him by prostate removal.

[Hopeless Sinner]

BH I can throughly understand the fear based on your father's experience and a healthy dose of skepticism of the medical profession is certainly warranted. I'd advise getting over the statin phobia, and find one that doesn't cause side effects for you.

I've been taking bp meds and statins off and on for ~25 years (I'm 66.) At times I could control my levels w consistent, intense exercise and a good diet. As I aged I couldn't/wouldn't maintain a perfect diet or maintain the exercise regimen so I then became very consistent w the meds.

Rosuvastatin works for me, no side effects at all. I had cholesterol total of 145, and saw a cardiologist that suggested taking a bigger dose of Rosuvastatin in an effort to increase HDL. Increasing HDL could lead to reducing plaque buildup in the blood vessels. Changed my diet a bit as well when i started my increased dosage and now have more HDL and a 125 over all cholesterol number.

The cardiologist also wanted me to take an additional bp med, a beta blocker, to limit the rate of increase of my heart rate while exercising even though my bp is perfect. That lasted about 3 days, before I said eff that. It was like being dead so I thought I'd rather take the risk than live like that so I'm not buying in completely on every Rx that's offered.

[Danno]

Get a CAC scan (I think those are the initials, coronary calcium). They use cholesterol as a proxy, the CAC scan tells you it the cholesterol is actually doing bad things.

[Buster Highmen]

Get a CAC scan (I think those are the initials, coronary calcium). They use cholesterol as a proxy, the CAC scan tells you it the cholesterol is actually doing bad things.

I have this scheduled for tomorrow.

[phatty]

I have hereditary high cholesterol. My mom's LDL (without statins) was ~600. She's almost 80, overweight and going strong. Her mom was ~900 LDL without statins and lived to 93. I was 15 when I had mine measured the first time and it was 220. 15yrs ago I tried Lipitor and suffered muscle weakness and joint pain. My Dr told they wouldn't help much and took me off it.

Fast forward to August this year and I had a sudden heart attack while running. I'm 48 and in good shape. I exercise regularly and don't drink/smoke/drugs (Mormon). My cardiologist said my high cholesterol was not the cause but played a role (I have fairly minimal build up). I had a STEMI heart attack where the plaque ruptured in my artery and my body then created a clot causing 100% blockage. My plaque was not as stable due to my high cholesterol. It all happened within 10 minutes and no one would have been able to see anything prior to that day. I now have 2 stents, but also still have no issues with build up.

Since then, I'm now on Cestor due to my reaction to Lipitor. Apparently there are injectable statins that are far more effective than the pills but are crazy expensive. Insurance usually won't cover them unless you have bad reactions to most pills.

When I was younger, they said "high" cholesterol was ~200 LDL. My cardiologist said 150 is the new "high". He wants me down at 70 to firm up my plaque. I'm at ~160 now after a month of statins and he's not sure Crestor will get me there. I'm also cutting down red meat and getting back to my regular exercise. I'll see in a couple months how it goes.

[Buster Highmen]

BH I can throughly understand the fear based on your father's experience and a healthy dose of skepticism of the medical profession is certainly warranted. I'd advise getting over the statin phobia, and find one that doesn't cause side effects for you.

OK....(grumble grumble grumble...)

I've been taking bp meds and statins off and on for ~25 years (I'm 66.) At times I could control my levels w consistent, intense exercise and a good diet. As I aged I couldn't/wouldn't maintain a perfect diet or maintain the exercise regimen so I then became very consistent w the meds.

I'm 1 year older. Much worse history with the cholesterol numbers...

Rosuvastatin works for me, no side effects at all. I had cholesterol total of 145, and saw a cardiologist that suggested taking a bigger dose of Rosuvastatin in an effort to increase HDL. Increasing HDL could lead to reducing plaque buildup in the blood vessels. Changed my diet a bit as well when i started my increased dosage and now have more HDL and a 125 over all cholesterol number.

The cardiologist also wanted me to take an additional bp med, a beta blocker, to limit the rate of increase of my heart rate while exercising even though my bp is perfect. That lasted about 3 days, before I said eff that. It was like being dead so I thought I'd rather take the risk than live like that so I'm not buying in completely on every Rx that's offered.

Thank you

[Buster Highmen]

I have hereditary high cholesterol. My mom's LDL (without statins) was ~600. She's almost 80, overweight and going strong. Her mom was ~900 LDL without statins and lived to 93. I was 15 when I had mine measured the first time and it was 220. 15yrs ago I tried Lipitor and suffered muscle weakness and joint pain. My Dr told they wouldn't help much.

Fast forward to August this year and I had a sudden heart attack while running. I'm 48 and in good shape. I exercise regularly and don't drink/smoke/drugs (Mormon). My cardiologist said my high cholesterol was not the cause but played a role (I have fairly minimal build up). I had a STEMI heart attack where the plaque ruptured in my artery and my body then created a clot causing 100% blockage. My plaque was not as stable due to my high cholesterol. It all happened within 10 minutes and no one would have been able to see anything prior to that day. I now have 2 stents, but also still have no issues with build up.

Since then, I'm now on Cestor due to my reaction to Lipitor. Apparently there are injectable statins that are far more effective than the pills but are crazy expensive. Insurance usually won't cover them unless you have bad reactions to most pills.

When I was younger, they said "high" cholesterol was ~200 LDL. My cardiologist said 150 is the new "high". He wants me down at 70 to firm up my plaque. I'm at ~160 now after a month of statins and he's not sure Crestor will get me there.

Sorry to hear about the HA.

I'm 67.75, 195 lbs, OK but not great shape (bad right knee so no running, but lots of biking) 125/80 bp, relatively low (127) triglycerides.

As mentioned, I guess I'm going to have to follow the crowd now and start taking non recreational drugs.

I keep reading about how the Framingham Heart Study on which statin treatments is based is screwy and incorrect.

Thank you.

[phatty]

Sorry to hear about the HA.

I'm 67.75, 195 lbs, OK but not great shape (bad right knee so no running, but lots of biking) 125/80 bp, relatively low (127) triglycerides.

As mentioned, I guess I'm going to have to follow the crowd now and start taking non recreational drugs.

Thank you.

Yeah, I've never taken any drugs and avoid Drs. Guess I can't avoid it anymore. Talk to them about the injectables. At your age, it might be an option.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Maybe check out Dr Peter Attias’ podcasts. He’s all in on heart health but doesn’t think calculated LDL and triglycerides are a meaningful metric. Maybe start herehttps://peterattiamd.com/the-straigh...sterol-part-i/


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[Buster Highmen]

Yeah, I've never taken any drugs and avoid Drs. Guess I can't avoid it anymore. Talk to them about the injectables. At your age, it might be an option.

I spent the 70s avoiding addiction and needles. I'm kind of bummed to be confronting all that again. I did get my total chol down below 200 for a few years being strict vegan, but after having kids, I realized I like meat. I guess it was Anthony Bourdain that said something like statins offer a path to foie gras.

[Buzzworthy]

I’ve been on Simvastatin since my TIA at 35. Does the job with no side effects.

[Buster Highmen]

Maybe check out Dr Peter Attias’ podcasts. He’s all in on heart health but doesn’t think calculated LDL and triglycerides are a meaningful metric. Maybe start herehttps://peterattiamd.com/the-straigh...sterol-part-i/


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hanks, yeah, I read this stuff but "my" (I always hated using that determiner) doctor, now that I'm officially ancient, keeps pushing the statins. So I'm caught between the convention, which has been so wrong in the past, and the w00-woo spinny floopy moonbeam unconventionalists who say otherwise.

Dishwashers are environmental and flying can have a lower carbon footprint than driving.

[yeahman]

See that's your problem right there. You have a doctor. [emoji1]

[Buster Highmen]

See that's your problem right there. You have a doctor. [emoji1]

My first since before I left my parents in 1973.