If you care about America and immigration...

[Foggy_Goggles]

Well I didn't ask that question but if I did the answer is my world is sometimes the contractor, sometimes the property owner but in the long run shitty work is shitty work. Aside from the structural and safety side, I'm not sure its fundamental.

What I actually asked what how should I pay workers for whom I can neither legally write a paycheck nor pay as a contractor unless they have liability insurance? Is not one of the challenges with undocumented residents (I'm not sure what term doesn't offend) that it is difficult to impossible to be legally employed? Or is that not a challenge?

I try not to ask rhetorical questions and I do seek out alternative views to mine. I also don't hold ill will towards personalities from the internet. If you chose not to have a conversation, that's your choice. Its too bad. You're a smart dude that in the past has helped me understand some shit. The only perspective any of us can have is our own. If you shared some of yours, you stand a chance of influencing me and maybe I'll be less dumb. You only know if you try.

[Cisco Kid]

Get a legal sub to employ and pay the illegal labor. I see that works for landscapers.

[Bunion 2020]

Well I didn't ask that question but if I did the answer is my world is sometimes the contractor, sometimes the property owner but in the long run shitty work is shitty work. Aside from the structural and safety side, I'm not sure its fundamental.

What I actually asked what how should I pay workers for whom I can neither legally write a paycheck nor pay as a contractor unless they have liability insurance? Is not one of the challenges with undocumented residents (I'm not sure what term doesn't offend) that it is difficult to impossible to be legally employed? Or is that not a challenge?

I try not to ask rhetorical questions and I do seek out alternative views to mine. I also don't hold ill will towards personalities from the internet. If you chose not to have a conversation, that's your choice. Its too bad. You're a smart dude that in the past has helped me understand some shit. The only perspective any of us can have is our own. If you shared some of yours, you stand a chance of influencing me and maybe I'll be less dumb. You only know if you try.

Don't want to derail the fixing of a minor problem by using a ski forum but. I see a bunch of crews (masonry, drywall, insulation) that come to Montana for a set period of time, around 8 months and work legally as a part of a crew are housed etc and then they head back home for around 4 months. No idea what kind of visa they are on but I do know they are legal to work.

OK, back to it.

[PNWbrit]

No idea what kind of visa they are on but I do know they are legal to work.

Hmmmmmm.

[leroy jenkins]

While the current discussion on landscapers etc is important, I do want to add that it isn't small businesses, or contractors that are employing the majority of undocumented workers. Its the agriculture industry. I'm sure everyone knows that bust just saying.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Don't want to derail the fixing of a minor problem by using a ski forum but. I see a bunch of crews (masonry, drywall, insulation) that come to Montana for a set period of time, around 8 months and work legally as a part of a crew are housed etc and then they head back home for around 4 months. No idea what kind of visa they are on but I do know they are legal to work.

OK, back to it.

They do this on farms and ranches too. Sorry, I don't really have anything valuable to add, just that I've seen that.
When did LJ turn into such a bleeding heart liberal?

[The Reverend Floater]

The issue is far more complex than most of you give it credit.

One small micro example: If a migrant worker needs to be documented to work, what do they do while they wait to be documented? In many states you must be present to be documented, so how do they eat if they can't work while waiting? Who is going to help them navigate the crazy complicated process to get documented? What if they get sick? How do they get to the county or state office if they can't drive?

I work with a non profit that provides food, employment guidance and healthcare assistance for all sorts of people in poverty and I try to read a lot about the subject. The stories the illegal folks have of being manipulated by state and federal GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES are harrowing, to say the least. I'm not talking about normal, county level bureaucracy bullshit. I'm talking about bribery, threats, and pure racist bile. People being told that their kids will be killed if they bring them over; government employees using family members to route bribes and so on and so forth. So if you're a part of that community, are you going to run to the nearest official for help?? Are you going to trust law enforcement? Even doctors?

The reality is that in many cases, it's their employers who become their champions or their guillotine. In Idaho, dairies often run programs for their ILLEGAL employees who want to become documented or have visas. And no, they're not always good or honest. But the reality is that the employees have some sort of income and a base to build upon, for better or worse. The dairies get dirt cheap labor and as long as they're helping some of them along, everyone turns a blind eye. The conditions are awful but I'll tell you what, there is not a line of white MAGAs waiting to take those jobs, shoveling shit and hosing out silos.

This is why I blanch at blanket statements like "protect the borders," "protect our jobs" or "make them get documented!" Nobody wants to know the details, nobody else wants those jobs and most importantly, our government is making everything worse in the process.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

[leroy jenkins]

The issue is far more complex than most of you give it credit.

One small micro example: If a migrant worker needs to be documented to work, what do they do while they wait to be documented? In many states you must be present to be documented, so how do they eat if they can't work while waiting? Who is going to help them navigate the crazy complicated process to get documented? What if they get sick? How do they get to the county or state office if they can't drive?

I work with a non profit that provides food, employment guidance and healthcare assistance for all sorts of people in poverty and I try to read a lot about the subject. The stories the illegal folks have of being manipulated by state and federal GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES are harrowing, to say the least. I'm not talking about normal, county level bureaucracy bullshit. I'm talking about bribery, threats, and pure racist bile. People being told that their kids will be killed if they bring them over; government employees using family members to route bribes and so on and so forth. So if you're a part of that community, are you going to run to the nearest official for help?? Are you going to trust law enforcement? Even doctors?

The reality is that in many cases, it's their employers who become their champions or their guillotine. In Idaho, dairies often run programs for their ILLEGAL employees who want to become documented or have visas. And no, they're not always good or honest. But the reality is that the employees have some sort of income and a base to build upon, for better or worse. The dairies get dirt cheap labor and as long as they're helping some of them along, everyone turns a blind eye. The conditions are awful but I'll tell you what, there is not a line of white MAGAs waiting to take those jobs, shoveling shit and hosing out silos.

This is why I blanch at blanket statements like "protect the borders," "protect our jobs" or "make them get documented!" Nobody wants to know the details, nobody else wants those jobs and most importantly, our government is making everything worse in the process.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

No one has been making those blanket statements though. THe only people saying we should secure the border have also been saying we should make it easier to get documented. At least, speaking for myself and the comments I've seen, haven't read the whole thread, but it seems you're replying to the imaginary racist boogieman in your head rather than any real human being.

The whole time I was reading your post, I was thinking yea great, he gets it, but what conclusion is he going to draw at the end, that we need comprehensive immigration reform? nah, hes just going to end by saying secure the border is ablanket statement that can'tbe combined with other ideas or nuanced in any way. That itself is a pretty blanket statement. Its also crazy and not true.

Who breeds you people? Is it in a lab somewhere?


How about you take like three sentences to say what you think we SHOULD do different? Everyone can be a critic.

[Foggy_Goggles]

The issue is far more complex than most of you give it credit.

Yes. I strive to be the second most compassionate and eloquent redneck (on the TGR) scale around here.

I ask this not to be an obstinate dick but to truly understand. Aren't dairies federally subsidized? Doesn't the benefit of the low cost labor generally flow to the owner of the agribusiness? Can't the same generally be said for other occupations stereotypically held by undocumented workers? Why can't business that won't pay a market rate for labor be allowed to fail?

I'm sure you'll find more people to muck stall and wash dishes at $30 hr. than you do at $15. I've always though it be be a bullshit argument that "I can't find any help at the stupid low non-living wage I want to pay so I get to break the rules because otherwise my business won't be profitable"

[kootenayskier]

I don't really disagree with any of this, but tell me, what about this is argument against securing the border? Letting in hordes of undocumented migrants isn't some sort of enlightened compassionate option, its unethical, and immoral, in that it sets those people up for exploitation. That is precisely the situation many powerful people want, a good supply of illegals for cheap slave labor.


We are presented with this false choice between an open unsecured border and xenophobia, but why can we not just work simultaneously towards having a secured border, while also having a more efficient properly funded and designed system for people to come across legally?

Choosing just one, or the other, or fighting about choosing just one, or the other, is never going to solve or improve this problem.

No argument from me. Polarized politics is preventing sensible solutions, on this and many other issues.

[skaredshtles]

Yes. I strive to be the second most compassionate and eloquent redneck (on the TGR) scale around here.

I ask this not to be an obstinate dick but to truly understand. Aren't dairies federally subsidized? Doesn't the benefit of the low cost labor generally flow to the owner of the agribusiness?

<Devin Nunes has entered the chat>

[XXX-er]

The only answer is a big beautiful wall and the mexicans will pay for it

[leroy jenkins]

The only answer is a big beautiful wall and the mexicans will pay for it

It is a problem worth taking seriously. All comments like this show is that you are not a serious person capable of serious thought.

Trump is quickly ceasing to be relevant you can stop parodying him. Its more like an obsession than any sort of actually commentary.

[teleee]

Yes. I strive to be the second most compassionate and eloquent redneck (on the TGR) scale around here.

I ask this not to be an obstinate dick but to truly understand. Aren't dairies federally subsidized? Doesn't the benefit of the low cost labor generally flow to the owner of the agribusiness? Can't the same generally be said for other occupations stereotypically held by undocumented workers? Why can't business that won't pay a market rate for labor be allowed to fail?

I'm sure you'll find more people to muck stall and wash dishes at $30 hr. than you do at $15. I've always though it be be a bullshit argument that "I can't find any help at the stupid low non-living wage I want to pay so I get to break the rules because otherwise my business won't be profitable"

I mostly agree with you on all of this. But I will say we pay $30 per hour and 90% of the workforce speaks English as a second language (if they speak English at all. The loudmouth entitled asshole proclaiming that the emigrants are taking their jobs - don’t want those jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[XXX-er]

It is a problem worth taking seriously. All comments like this show is that you are not a serious person capable of serious thought.

Trump is quickly ceasing to be relevant you can stop parodying him. Its more like an obsession than any sort of actually commentary.

It was pretty funny when he said it and it still is, a lot of Americans ( probably unguided ) believed him and Trump is still delivering on the stupidity file

no body has been able to stop it cuz you can't

[Not DJSapp]

Honest Question

How is my buy the book contracting business supposed to pay undocumented workers? Can they get liability insurance so I can 1099 them? Because I can't W2 them? Or just $20s of the stack?

Does the shadow economy benefit anyone? License, registration, proof of insurance, liability workmans comp, business licence, CCW, health insurance, building permit? So fuck all that shit?

Honest answer: you turn the people without documentation around and say they need papers. They apologize for the confusion, go out and find papers and are back later that afternoon. They come back with a Tribal Reservation ID card and a SS card, and that passes muster as far as the government sniff test is concerned. You make a copy of the ID's, fill out their W2 with the information provided, withhold taxes, and you pay them. If you ever get audited, you can show them your copy of the ID and prove you acted in good faith, and claim you didn't know the documents were forged (because most US folks have never seen a Tribal ID so they don't know what to look for, and a SS card is stupid easy to fake if you laminate the card). But the whole time you're suspicious as hell of them because they're speaking spanish as a first language even though they're "from the Navajo Nation". And last year their name was Steven.

In reality, this kind of hiring is funding unemployment and social security because these dummy accounts are not ever being collected on.

[Foggy_Goggles]

And I'm assuming that is in the bridge building skilled trades?

I think we are saying the same thing. I think we will be a bilingual country soon enough. I speak Spanish at work almost on the daily. I personally think that the younger hispanic tradesmen remind me a lot more of my friends and I than the don't like to get my hands dirty crowd.

But its full circle. Does any of this support whats going on at the border right now? That seems distinctly different that a path to citizenship for skilled labor.

[leroy jenkins]

It was pretty funny when he said it and it still is, a lot of Americans ( probably unguided ) believed him and Trump is still delivering on the stupidity file

no body has been able to stop it cuz you can't

Stop 100%? maybe not but it could be vastly improved. If we made it so that legal immigration was a more attractive workable option than illegal for people who aren't criminals, the numbers crossing the border would be vastly lower, and far more aggressive tactics would be justifiable both morally and defendable politically.

Your cynicism is a large part of the problem. Not YOURS specifically, but its a common attitude, that will break our country, people just giving up on problems that clearly need fixing cus ehhh no one can fix this stuff everything fucked. We clearly have no idea what would happen if we tried both securing the border and opening the means to cross legally. I think its really hard to argue there wouldn't bea huge improvement, and anyone trying to argue such seems to not reallly have any actual points, so much as just cynicism and trolling.

Yea, trump should have just done standup instead of running for office.

[Cisco Kid]

I was the only legal citizen on a landscape crew for 6 years after I started collecting SS. They were "documented" and paying for it. You got the answer to your question from Not DJSapp. The job seekers know how to survive.

[XXX-er]

Its not my country , I'm Canadian and we have the same issues

Yea, trump should have just done standup instead of running for office.

And he would have been the best standup comedien ever

[XXX-er]

Its not my country , I'm Canadian and we have the same issues

Yea, trump should have just done standup instead of running for office.

And he would have been the best standup comedien ever

[heckacali]

Trump is quickly ceasing to be relevant...

You talking about DONALD Trump? the current leading GOP presidential candidate who will likely get 45% +/- of the national election vote?
Huh.
Strange bar for what is relevant...

[skaredshtles]

You talking about DONALD Trump? the current leading GOP presidential candidate who will likely get 45% +/- of the national election vote?
Huh.
Strange bar for what is relevant...

Don't engage Leroy. He's a fuckin' moran.

[Cisco Kid]

He'd be tolerable if he wasn't so much of a verbose lane changer.

[XXX-er]

You talking about DONALD Trump? the current leading GOP presidential candidate who will likely get 45% +/- of the national election vote?
Huh.
Strange bar for what is relevant...

Isn't it still embarrassing ?