Death of Proforms?

**Plakespear** · 03-12-2007, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by L7

So if the skis are a tool of the trade (they are) why don't the hills take care of that?

Hunter Mtn. provides all of the pro patrollers with a new setup each season for this reason. Patrollers wear out boots a lot faster, since they are always walking around in them doing their job. We also gave all the pro patrollers free service since if you are responsible for getting someone down an icy mogul field in a rescue sled, you better have some good edges. Still, most of them would put something in the tip jar anyway, except the ones who were also bartenders

**onehotchili** · 03-12-2007, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by mtbakerskier

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of reps out there that either dont give a damn and just pass out a stack of forms as fast as they can to be doen with them, or they dont hand them out at all, when in fact the REPS should TAKE THE RESPONCIBILITY to know what skiers at what moutnains are the ones that A, deserve forms, and B, will drive sells.

i agree with this statement. as a "part-time" coach, i have taught over 40 days this season and am in the home stretch of 3 more weekends till the end of the season for me. i have been working hard with my kids and i think their progressive improvement over this weird snow year in Tahoe has shown that their hard work and mine has paid off.

if pro-forms were to disappear for folks like me, i would definitely be disappointed. i do have some solid professional and personal relationships with reps from different companies and several shops in the area, so i would hope those folks could still take care of me, but i understand if they can't.

i *do* know that i get lots of questions on my gear from my ski team kids' parents and i generally have very positive things to say about my skis. i know in more than a few cases, they have resulted in those parents going out and purchasing skis like the ones in my quiver.

in any case, i can see if some restrictions need to be placed to prevent folks from abusing pro-forms. personally i couldn't stomach the idea of just going to clinics, never teaching, just to "score a deal"....

**squaretail** · 03-12-2007, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

The shop I work with basically blows Volkl off as a pro-form or shop-form because they have not had product available.

Manufacturers should recognize that good repping on the mountain will have better resulsts than most shop form deals. If you look at the race team here, they are 90% Fischer - and no Volkl at all. Why? At least in part because Fischer sets the coaches up - even though they teach only a small segment of the ski population. How much impact do you think seeing all the race kids using Fischers has on the other customers at the area?

Frankly, we have a lot more pull on consumers than many manufacturers and obviously shop rats recognize. They can choose to disregard instructors as marketing agents, but I don't belive that is a wise move at all.

grrr, I hear ya.

Regarding lack of product, it's true that AC4/Mantra/Gotama have been very difficult to come by. Forecasting is a bitch. If somebody told me 3 years ago that we would sell 4000 pairs of a 94mm ski (Mantra), I'd tell them they were out of their mind.

Your point about race coach support, on mountain reps, and it's effect on the rest of the customers at a certain area, you are absolutely correct, and it is one of the largest reasons why Völkl is where we are today. 15 years ago, we were a struggling niche brand that sold 10,000 pairs. We then launched an immense grassroots campaign to get to as many ski areas as possible and make sure that as many rippin' locals as possible were on our skis. It all grew from there.

In '07, the reality is that you can't sponsor every race program, and there is such a thing as competition, so you pick and choose your battles.

The areas themselves can sometimes control this. If a particular area doesn't sell your product in their retail shop, good luck getting your product used or repped by anyone on the ski school or coaching staff. In the East, Völkl has this problem at Okemo and Hunter.

And to your last point, the industry knows that instructors are important link in the chain, and that's why we aren't "ending" pro forms the way other companies are rumored to be doing...

Frankly, I think this is much ado about not much...a few key dealers didn't like the pro-direct web sales that some companies were doing, and they called the industry on it. Pros and shop guys will always be able to get discounted stuff...the procedures just may change a little.

**BushwackerinPA** · 03-12-2007, 09:59 PM

squaretail when is the katana going to be proformable?

**cmor** · 03-12-2007, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pedro

First off, who sees a patrollers skis?
Somebody hurt in a sled or someone getting busted.

Second, I have never had someone come into the shop and say "my instructor was on this ski so I want it. Never.

Third, who sees a semi good pro?
Nobody.

Either you are a total ripper and get free skis or you work in a shop and get cheap skis. Other than that you are on your own.

It can be as easy as that.

I don't make shit, I am horribly overqualified for the amount of money I make, I pay for my own training, and after 3 feet of snow overnight I help get everything open by 9am so everyone with high paying jobs in the city can take their overpriced gear and go ski groomers under avie paths. Bullshit I don't sell skis. I can't even afford proform. I am totally fucking broke. And I would be royally pissed if ski companies shit on me and made me pay retail for the few pieces of gear a year I pick up. They are horribly deranged if they don't think I'm worth comping gear for.

**Tube Sag** · 03-12-2007, 10:26 PM

So i didn't read all four pages of posts, but I felt like saying something. As per emails received from NSSRA, and as per perspective of a industry specialty retailer, K2 basically stepped up and said they would set a precedent of sorts by eliminating their pro-form system AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS. The new Elan/Dalbello alliance is following in similar step. This has been a long standing argument in the ski industry, and finally it is getting addressed. They are nothowever, speaking of eliminating the entire concept, just reworking it to make it more sustainable. There will still be legit pro-form and some shop form pricing available for people who should be getting it, ie people who will be promoting business for the product. The system has always been in place to bolster the sales of product. The problem is it is doing just the opposite, it undercuts the retailer by selling direct to the customer. As I understand it now, the "new" concept simply entails that legit pro-form recipients must go through a shop instead of factory direct. Select shops will have specific "pro stock" out of which they will take the appropriate stock, but long story short, you have to go to an authorized retailer to get product. Which helps promote not only the product your buying , but the shop you bought it though. . . which helps the shop. . . which is the visible customer face of the product. This is a simple cycle which ultimately helps the industry by making sure the retailers are healthy. If they (the local ski shop) are competing against the local reps and prices they can't even get at wholesale, how is that good for anyone but the guy getting the bro deal. I will admit that sucks , short term, for people on the receiving end of a cheap deal, but guys the industry is not that big. We need to do what is best for the companies. If the companies are selling direct to a loosly regulated pro/shop customer base, they are competing against themselves.
You will still be able to get hookups working in a shop, patroling, instructing, industry jobs, etc. Just from a shop not through the company. The only thing it will really change is the looseness of the system.
I am sure this is not a popular idea, but from the "small-one-shop-specialty retailer-fighting-like-hell-to-make-money-in-a-ski-town" perspective, this has been a long time coming.

**ill-advised strategy** · 03-12-2007, 11:17 PM

fyi: I pay attention to what patrollers ski because I know they're on their gear all the fucking time. I sneak looks at their boot soles and sidewalls to see how they're holding up. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

**leroy jenkins** · 03-13-2007, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Plakespear

*When I worked in shops, these guys were always the ones asking "What's the instructor discount?" "I instruct, don't I get a discount?" "Can't you hook me up? I'm an instructor." etc. Full time pros were a lot more respectful.

Goddamn I hate instructors. They come in and want you to bend over backwards to earn THIER tip for em. Its even worse because the shop I worked at was owned by the Aspen Ski Co, so the instructors wanted free everything, for them or thier clients. "Oh I forgot my skis, can I borrow some?" Fuck you, a 6 year old is supposed to remember thier skis, but not you? "Oh this is my client, you think you can hook her up?" Only if you give me half your tip asshat.

Allright, back on topic now, excuse my little rant.

**leroy jenkins** · 03-13-2007, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by MrDirt

I'm no instructor. I'm just another shop employee in complete agreement about many so-called "pros" that don't deserve the pro form. Common sense tells me that if you are teaching kids, your "tools" for teaching don't need to be brand new high performance skis, boots, bindings, poles and softgoods. Take a hint from most intelligent skiers who realize that a pole is a pole is a pole. Buy a fleet of cheap aluminum scott rental poles if you break them constantly. At $20 a pair, I don't think you'll be too upset about losing a few here and there. Tearing up your gloves means you should probably be buying a pair of work gloves to ski in like the majority of people here.

MOst instructors don't even use the skis they get proform to teach. Especially kids/beginers/ and to some extent intermeidiates, the instructors use short, easy to turn ex low end rental skis, that cost em about $20. They want proforms on stuff so they have the latest shiniest gear on thier days off. I say they deserve about a 10% discount from retail, and thats it.

**verbier61** · 03-13-2007, 08:50 AM

from the other side of the pond:
the hot issue for big companies should be how cheap are sticks on ebay, rather than proforms.
Why should one pay - say - 600 euro for a pair of B3 in a shop, when they can be found on ebay for less than 250?

**grrrr** · 03-13-2007, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Only if you give me half your tip asshat.

I'm not going to say that instructors should get anything from the shop. I have never asked for anything for myself or my clients...but if you come by you're welcome to fifty percent of my tips from this season. That comes to $5 cash and $5 dollars on my starbucks gift card.

Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

MOst instructors don't even use the skis they get proform to teach. Especially kids/beginers/ and to some extent intermeidiates, the instructors use short, easy to turn ex low end rental skis, that cost em about $20. They want proforms on stuff so they have the latest shiniest gear on thier days off. I say they deserve about a 10% discount from retail, and thats it.

Horseshit. I bought a pair of new RX8 skis for teaching - because they carve well and perform well in the bumps where all my "day off" skis are big and fat - and suck for teaching. I didn't get any of those skis on pro-form. most of the instructors I work with are on big twin-tips - because most of them are college students, and their total teaching income is in the neighborhood of $400 per year. That's not enough to buy a seperate ski for teaching, even on proform. Proform sucks anyway. The Fischer RX8 price was $625 on proform and $449 on ebay.

For me, teaching costs me. I don't do it becuase I want hookups or tips. I do it for the reasosn that other parents coach soccer - because I love working with kids and sharing my love of the mountain with them.

I'll say it again though - when I run into attitudes like yours, I'm more than happy to tell all of my kids parents not to go to your shop.

**grrrr** · 03-13-2007, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by verbier61

from the other side of the pond:
the hot issue for big companies should be how cheap are sticks on ebay, rather than proforms.
Why should one pay - say - 600 euro for a pair of B3 in a shop, when they can be found on ebay for less than 250?

That's very true. And now our mountain, that has no ski shop, is advising us to share with that kind of information with the customers. For the mountain, the ability to get cheap gear from ebay or ski swaps or end of the season discounts means more people find skiing affordable. That hurts the ski shops, but frankly, the cost of ski gear is prohibitive in shops.

**half-fast** · 03-13-2007, 10:59 AM

looks like alot of "shops" are now selling on ebay.....

**gollub01** · 03-13-2007, 11:34 AM

I agree so many about instructors......They are pretty terrible....especially here in JH..........KNow how your in the same room as an instructor???......THEY FUCKING TELL YOU......All they do is cut lift lines and 90% cant ski......$500 for a private from an asshat from mt. no snow or HUNTER MT....fuck.....Dont get me wrong theres alot of really talented instuctors.....like MENACE...but for the normal gaper guides.......just get out of the way and dont talk out loud

**Shen** · 03-13-2007, 11:37 AM

this is all about the manufacturers bypassing the shops.....and the shops being pissed about it.
The manufacturers saw a way in which they could profit from a sub-commmunity through proform. The profit from a proform sale is quite a bit more than what a shop pays for a set of skis. The manufacturers LOVED this....now they are getting bitch-slapped by the retail community...so in turn the manufacturer needs to bitch-slap someone...so bend over pro-formers.....if you're real sweet...you might get a reach around.

I bought a pair of '07 RX8's off of TGR Gear Swap...and was lucky enough to beat pro form..by $240....and my ass wasn't sore.

Long live the Pro Form.

**gaped** · 03-13-2007, 11:50 AM

If ski instructors taught as well as they talked people would be skiing a lot better, and you ass clowns can't be skiing all that much if you're on these forums bitching all the time.

Everyone knows its not the gear you have, a good skier can ski anything and make it look good.

This thread is fun.

**mtbakerskier** · 03-13-2007, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

That's very true. And now our mountain, that has no ski shop, is advising us to share with that kind of information with the customers. For the mountain, the ability to get cheap gear from ebay or ski swaps or end of the season discounts means more people find skiing affordable. That hurts the ski shops, but frankly, the cost of ski gear is prohibitive in shops.

Exactly.....

Maybe more shops would sell more skis, and less people would abuse the form system, if the average joe didnt = feal like he was getting raped in the ass everytime he walked into a ski shop.

Seriously, don't you think that shops would sell more skis, companies would sell more skis, and there would be a lot more skiers in the sport, thus more $$$ floating around the industry if ski companies had more realistic ski pricing?

Imop $1000.00 for a pair of skis is highway robery. There is no way that I'd ski if i had to pay those prices. It just isnt affordable or obtainable to the average person anymore.

Just look at all the areas that lowered season pass rates. Now they have more skier days than ever and are making more $$$. The more people that we can make active skiers, the better off the sport and all involved with it will be. Creating a high / unobtainable barrier to entery is not good for the sport no matter how you look at it.

**shirk** · 03-13-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by mtbakerskier

if the average joe didnt = feal like he was getting raped in the ass everytime he walked into a ski shop.

This is exactly how I feel every time I walk into a shop and look at skis.

I only go into shops to find the correct size on anything I want then buy it via the web.

**laseranimal** · 03-13-2007, 01:29 PM

I don't care about forms, I don't get one so its not a big deal to me

what does affect me is rising prices on gear, I can't afford $1000 skis, $500 bindings, and $800 boots plus a $1000 season pass. Somethings gonna have to give if the industry is going to survive. If cutting down on forms to people who don't deserve them is going to help with costs and not just pad companies bottom lines then I'm all for it. We need skiing to be more affordable to more people. I think there's something more to this surge in backcountry skiing then just powderhounds looking for fresh tracks with the fancy new skis and bindings. I'm seeing a lot more people who get out there because they love skiing but are getting priced out of the resorts.

If I were ski shops I'd be much more worried about the secondhand market, then where a guy gets his form. People start using E-bay and online more, and your not just losing sales, you're losing customers

**strawjack** · 03-13-2007, 01:34 PM

being old school when the only sponsored riders were guys like schmidt, day, plake...maybe if the manufacturers didn't sponsor every freakin' kid at the local hill they'd make more $$$

and not have to worry about the pro deal.

everyone wants somethin' for nothin'

**squaretail** · 03-13-2007, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by laseranimal

Somethings gonna have to give if the industry is going to survive.

I agree with most of your post.

Do you really want the answer to your statement above?

You won't like it.

**laseranimal** · 03-13-2007, 01:36 PM

actually now that I think about it, I blame newschoolers

its got to somehow be tanners fault right?

**mntlion** · 03-13-2007, 01:46 PM

so, question.

how much SHOULD skis sell for in a store, how much profit is it OK to make,

should skis sell for $300? $500? $1000?

how much should the store make? nothing? $50? $500.

sure everyone likes to get a deal, but what do you think is "right"

somehow I dont think companies, stores, owners, patrollers, instructors, or really anyone in the ski industry are getting rich.

**mtbakerskier** · 03-13-2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by mntlion

so, question.

how much SHOULD skis sell for in a store, how much profit is it OK to make,

should skis sell for $300? $500? $1000?

how much should the store make? nothing? $50? $500.

sure everyone likes to get a deal, but what do you think is "right"

somehow I dont think companies, stores, owners, patrollers, instructors, or really anyone in the ski industry are getting rich.

How do you make a small fortune in the ski industry????

Start with a large one.

Lets face it no one in this industry is getting rich. Hell the entire ski and snowboard industry together is smaller than General Electric.

Everyone expects and wants the dealers and the mfgs to make a decent profit and a living. But why try to bleed every customer for every cent. Obviously the current pricing scheme doesnt work, so maybe its time for a new aproach. Restructure the pricing and business models to sell more units, and make more on volume not per unit sells.

Another thing to look at is look how the price of gear has fluctuated over time as the baby boomer generation has grown up. Does this industry really think that its going to survive by milking this generation for every cent forever? What about when they are gone? If we dont do something to get more young skiers into the sport, and make it assesable to them, then we are not going to have a viabel base to support the sport in 10~15 years. And I am not just talkign about the jib scene either. How about all of the recent collge grads? Make good gear that is apealing and afordable to them now, then when they are established in there own professions they will be passionate skiers that take there famlies skiing too.

Lets face it, something is seriously fucked when a family making the average income in america cant afford to ski on the weekends, let alone once or twice a year.

**squaretail** · 03-13-2007, 02:09 PM

While I'd love to blame Tanner for something, I can't really pin the price of ski gear on him.

Before we go too deep into this discussion, I'd like to mention one thing...adjusted for inflation, the average cost of a pair of skis sold by a retailer is less than it was in 1980.

Now that is off my chest, I essentially agree with you that top end gear is really expensive, and it can be a detriment to the sport. However, I can guarantee you that manufacturers aren't killing it, even at todays prices. With the current US Dollar/Euro exchange rate, US distributors are having a very difficult time. The dollar has declined almost 50% against the Euro over the last few years, virtually eliminating any operating margin we had.

OK, moving on. Let's say the market holds the line at $1000 for a new, top shelf model with binding, which it pretty much has already...what happens when it becomes unfeasible for the manufacturers to hold that?

Anybody want to guess?

And before anybody tees off on me or goes on some anti-industry rant, please be assured that I know and understand where you are coming from. IMO, ski gear is too expensive, and I'd love to tell you that there is hope around the corner, but I can't...

As a sidebar, if you really want to think about an industry that is gouging you, consider the $5 box of cheerios...do pulverized oats really cost that much?