AT Boot Flex Comparative List by model

[corn dog]

IMO the dynafit TLT 700 is at best comparable to a laser. It bears no resemblance to the new liner of freeride aero boots. Also the tlt4 in all its guises is essentially the same boot just with a variable number of buckles and other tweakage (AFAIK). My model is older but the buckles and cuff lock didn't really do anything noticeable so I chopped them off and made a homebrew tlt race. Even before that they were waaaay softer than a laser. These models should be (very) close together.
THe megalite is similar to a dynamite, which is more comparable to F1 and TLT 4.
There are some other interesting complications. At least as of a couple of years ago the matrix had a very soft stock tongue, softer than a laser tongue, but the rest of the boot was burlier. I dont' know if the tongue was ever changed. The megaride has definitely had a significant tongue stiffening upgrade over the years.

[laseranimal]

really?

I agree that the 700 is closer to a laser but the couple of times I've been in a laser I thought it was much softer, but I've never liked progressive flex where you have to push for 1-5* before you get any resistance. To be fair though I thought Denali's were softer then I was expecting when I had them on in the shop, I was expecting at least as much stiffness as a Struktura, and was really kind of disappointed given all the love they get on the board as a "stiff" AT boot.

It may be the way the 700 fits my calf/feet(I went down half a shell size from my normal size) but I think its pretty stiff for a laser/dynamite class boot, for sure its not on the same level of the Struktura but despite the soft tongue I always feel like I'm getting solid pressure in resistance the second I flex the boot. After adding world cup booster's(3 straps + stiffener) its even better.

[jrosendahl]

Weavin -
I am really happy with my megarides + a tornado toung - it's about XT stiff with a slightly more progressive flex.

[Tony]

Please bear in mind all the new 2007/08 models are signaled with a tentative (?) until someone attest to their flex index in the slopes.

Added Garmont Shamen, Astral and Dynamite (cheaper version of the Megalite).

Added Scarpa Hurricane, F3 and F1 Race (lack of tongue and powerstrap put it at the bottom of the chart).

Added Dynafit Aero Speed (3-buckle version of the Freeride), TLT 4 Lite (2-buckle) and the new Zzero range of 2, 3 and 4-buckle boots with carbon reinforcements.

Downgraded the Dynafit TLT 700 to a little bit above the Laser (rgd. Laseranimal and Corn Dog comments).

Downgraded the 1-buckle Dynafit Race Pro (probably same support as a Koflach mountaineering boot on Silvrettas so lower than F1s).

[Tony]

The Shamen, Garmont's new offering for '07-08 is FI 120. The ladies version, the Astral, will be a 110.

A 110-flex freeride boot for women?

Those must be very burly women...

[corn dog]

It may be the way the 700 fits my calf/feet .

Yeah fit is going to affect it, also the liner can make quite a difference to preceived flex. I've been pretty amazed at the difference in my salomon pro models with different thermoflex liners and the stock liners.
List is looking rather nice

[pechelman]

I'm with everyone else on the "Aeros are stiff" crowd.

I respect pechelman's engineering knowledge and opinions, but all I can think of is that he has a weird pair, because they were worlds stiffer than any other AT boot I tried (Spirit 3, Megaride, Laser, Matrix, etc.) It wasn't even a comparison.

no worries I know youre not calling me an idiot.
this is a good thread and discussion
good to have differing opinions

anyway, to clarify, I have last years 4 buckle aero.
Ive tried on some lasers and megarides and definitely agree that the aero is by far the stiffest boot Ive tried on in AT world.

however, what I am saying, is that in comparison to solly's xwave 6 and 8, and flex indicies of 60 and 80, respectively, I do not think a freeride aero is anywhere near close to 80. Thats all im saying here. Feels maybe like 60-70 when the cuff locks engage, and without the cuff locks, is more like a 50-60.

I would also not discount the possibilty that maybe I do have a weird\softer pair of boots, but I have no reason to beleive that. Ill try on my buddy's one day for comparison. Itll be a squeeze though since hes a shell down.

I do agree with the respective locations and rankings of each boot though (of the ones ive tried on that is).

[uncle crud]

I don't know if this still is true, but a few years ago it was definitely true the "flex index" numbers used by various MFRs were not standardized, and thus a Lange 120 was not the same as a Rossi 120 or a Nordica 120.

But it helps to have some sort of barometer, I agree.

[Tony]

We must do something about the Aero Freeride.

Could this boot be in the same scale as a Denali XT/TT or Spirit 3/4?

I think not but if the crowd feel this is the case I'll downgrade.

I think we are starting to split hairs....which is a good thing.

[pechelman]

well since i seem to be the only other person with a differing opionion, let me try on my buddy's pair

I also sent this thread to UAN hoping he would post knowing he has extensive insight into the denali\megaride and even the FR Aero a bit.

it would be awesome if we could accurately measure each boots stiffness.
like stick a big pole in the boot shaft, pull it with a scale or known weight, and measure displacement.

[mc_roon]

The Shamen, Garmont's new offering for '07-08 is FI 120. One thing to note is the lack of touring mode in these boots, but they do come with a DIN/ISO sole and an AT sole.

PM me for more info.

Available 7/1/7

that basically sounds like an alpine boot with a AT sole? Without a walk mode i really dont see the point.

[pechelman]

http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=594


from lou dawsons website

and I agree with you mc.
Might as well just use your alpine boots..

[homerjay]

My limited $0.02 from comparisons:

Scarpa Denali TT is not much softer than a Salomon Xwave 9 (100-flex index), maybe a notch or two at the most.

With Raichle Flexon Comp tongue installed, it is stiffer than the Xwave 9 by a notch or two.

[laseranimal]

http://www.wildsnow.com/?p=594


from lou dawsons website

and I agree with you mc.
Might as well just use your alpine boots..

I guess I could see a use for it if you needed a vibram sole and didn't want to potentially screw up your alpine boots.

other then that I'm puzzled as well since I can't think of a time when you'd need to have a vibram sole without a walk function.

[pechelman]

well you might as well just get those clip on rockered vibram soles that you step into and lockon like tele bindings and use your alpine boots in naxos\fr\duke. I forget what theyre called, but its like cat-tracks on 'roids. That extra rocker would be enough, Id think, to compensate for no walk mode on any boot in most situations.

[Below Zero]

What is the Garmont G-ride?

[Tony]

The G-Ride is a slightly heavier (some PU instead of 100% Pebax) and cheaper version (aluminum vs. magnesium buckles) version of the Megaride.

Flex-wise should be the same?

Thoughts?

[pechelman]

hmm
ok
looking at tony's chart, and maybe im wrong here, but if my x-wave 8 is really a flex index of 90, instead of 80 like I thought, I could agree with the fact that the FR Aero is an 80 AFTER the cuff locks engage.

before that however, they are much softer, and Id think Id still stand behind my statement that theyre close to a 60-65.

Again, ive got the wings ground off, so Im pretty familiar with how the boot flexes ignoring the cuff locks.

[Tony]

I don't know why in the X-Wave range the 8.0 is 90, the 9.0 is 100 and so on.

Seems pretty retarded to me.

Anyway, consensus at last.

[The Dark Side]

I have to disagree with the comparative ratings of the Spirit 3 and Megaride. I compared them (both 05-06 models) and it seemed to me that the Megaride was stiffer. Not by much so perhaps they should be given the same flex index but no way the Megaride was 2 steps softer. However, I'm not sure if this years Spirit 3 is any stiffer than last years.

[Jonathan S.]

My suggestions, worthwhile and otherwise (with the latter attributable to being stuck in PDX, trying to get back from 3 days powder + 1 conference presentation to 3 days more powder in northern New England, with ORD “ground control” considerably complicating the transition):

1. Regrade everything in percent terms, with 100% being a “plug” boot. The problem with the current numerical system is that each boot company’s flex index in specific to that line, so it’s currently suggesting comparability across boot lines that is potentially misleading.

2. Garmont Dynamite is significantly stiffer than the MegaLite. (Same shell height, but different material.)

3. The 500 was the econo version of the 700. Was it really any softer? Then again, why not just make the list easier and ditch a discontinued econo boot that nobody is probably going to care about.

4. My understanding is that the Dynafit Evo & Lite are the same boot - the latter just ditches the third buckle. Stiffness must be identical?

5. I have the 3-buckle Dynafit Evo - awesome boot for what it is (i.e., very light with almost unimpeded forward flex in tour mode for max skinning stride and also easy of climbing with crampons), but no way is it as stiff as the Laser.

6. The best case for the 700 was that it was comparable to the Laser. Definitely can’t be listed as stiffer.

7. The first-gen red Denali (well, okay, really more maroon) had three buckles. You should clarify the reference as four-buckle red Denali.

8. This is really speculative, but dontcha think the F3 pics make it look just like a Matrix but with a bellows?

9. Struktura EVO was stiff for its day, but with a relatively short upper cuff and only one upper buckle, it’s way out of its league in the current rankings. Plus Lowa has introduced two stiffer versions since then.

10. The three-buckle Aero is also way out of its league. Or at least back in fall 2004, when I was trying to decide between Garmont-Scarpa-Dynafit for a Dyna-compatible boot, all sources indicated that although the three-buckle Aero seemed to have been intended to compete with the Mega & Matrix, it was considerably softer.

11. Some of these models are moving targets. Current third-generation Matrix (black switch, slightly different shell colors) is stiffer than the second-gen (grey switch) and Euro-only first gen (three-position switch that everyone hated). Mega stiffness has been tweaked more than once.

[corn dog]

3. The 500 was the econo version of the 700. Was it really any softer? Then again, why not just make the list easier and ditch a discontinued econo boot that nobody is probably going to care about.

4. My understanding is that the Dynafit Evo & Lite are the same boot - the latter just ditches the third buckle. Stiffness must be identical?

5. I have the 3-buckle Dynafit Evo - awesome boot for what it is (i.e., very light with almost unimpeded forward flex in tour mode for max skinning stride and also easy of climbing with crampons), but no way is it as stiff as the Laser.

6. The best case for the 700 was that it was comparable to the Laser. Definitely can’t be listed as stiffer.


10. The three-buckle Aero is also way out of its league. Or at least back in fall 2004, when I was trying to decide between Garmont-Scarpa-Dynafit for a Dyna-compatible boot, all sources indicated that although the three-buckle Aero seemed to have been intended to compete with the Mega & Matrix, it was considerably softer.

11. Some of these models are moving targets. Current third-generation Matrix (black switch, slightly different shell colors) is stiffer than the second-gen (grey switch) and Euro-only first gen (three-position switch that everyone hated). Mega stiffness has been tweaked more than once.

Word!

I would put the dynamite closer to a TLT 4 than anything else I've tried/mentioned. Low cuff, mushy. Regrettably heavy.

[Jonathan S.]

Hmm, no progress here at PDX, so here's an attempt at summary, copied & pasted from a spreadsheet:

Garmont Scarpa Dynafit Lowa
100% plug boot
90% typical consumer stock race boot
89% Shaman
85% mid-range of typical performance-oriented boots 85% Astral
80% Endorphin Hurricane Zzero 4C
75% Adrenalin Tornado Pro Aero FR
70% Denali TT
68% Spirit 3/4
65% G-Ride, MegaRide Denali XT & Matrix Zzero 3C
60% Laser Denali- old red Aero EVO, Light
55% Magic 700
50% Dynamite
45% F1 Evo, Lite, Zzero 2C
40% MegaLite
35% F1 Race Race Pro
15% MLT4 w/o mods

[laseranimal]

3. The 500 was the econo version of the 700. Was it really any softer? Then again, why not just make the list easier and ditch a discontinued econo boot that nobody is probably going to care about.


6. The best case for the 700 was that it was comparable to the Laser. Definitely can’t be listed as stiffer.

I'd say keep the 500, given that there was a thread about the Scarpa Titan the other day it'd be nice to have at least a reference to it if anyone is doing some E-bay shopping for cheap AT boots.

As for the 700 I'm sticking to my guns on the fact that I think its as stiff or stiffer then the Laser. I've tried the Matrix which is supposed to be stiffer then the laser and the 700 to me is as stiff as the Matrix, with a world cup booster strap = +10 points on the scale, I have no problem comparing them to my Lowa Strukturas which right now sit at 80 on the scale.

[Tony]

Jonathan S., regarding your suggestions, worthwhile and otherwise:

1. The problem with the current numerical system is that each boot company’s flex index in specific to that line, so it’s currently suggesting comparability across boot lines that is potentially misleading.
I'd rather leave it like it is for two reasons:
a) AT boot manufacturers do not provide flex data for their boots. Alpine boot manufacturers do. Using the same alpine brand (eg. Salomon) as a benchmark provides more consistent comparability to multi-branded AT boots.
b) Anyone can convert this scale into a 1-10 or a percentile ranking as you did above, but I am sure AT boot buyers would like to know stiffness/flex ratings not only within the AT boot universe but compared to (a sample of) the alpine boot universe.

2. Garmont Dynamite is significantly stiffer than the MegaLite.
Done, upgraded to Matrix stiffness.

3. The 500 was the econo version of the 700. Was it really any softer? Then again, why not just make the list easier and ditch a discontinued econo boot that nobody is probably going to care about.
The 500 is the predecessor of the 2-buckle boot TLT 4 Lite. I've corrected that on the list. I am with Laser, this list is supposed to help the 2nd hand buyer too.

4. My understanding is that the Dynafit Evo & Lite are the same boot - the latter just ditches the third buckle. Stiffness must be identical?
Agreed. The forward instep buckle can't improve stiffness that much. Done.


5. I have the 3-buckle Dynafit Evo - awesome boot for what it is (i.e., very light with almost unimpeded forward flex in tour mode for max skinning stride and also easy of climbing with crampons), but no way is it as stiff as the Laser.
Done. See #4.

6. The best case for the 700 was that it was comparable to the Laser. Definitely can’t be listed as stiffer.
Sorry, I am with Laser. IMO it's a notch stiffer. Maybe we can hear a 4-5th opinion on this?

7. The first-gen red Denali (well, okay, really more maroon) had three buckles. You should clarify the reference as four-buckle red Denali.
You are right. I am getting a little dizzy now...

8. This is really speculative, but dontcha think the F3 pics make it look just like a Matrix but with a bellows?
Probably, but the bellows might make a little bit more flexible...even on ski mode. And according to Scarpa it will fit the gap between the F1 and the Matrix, hence its position in the list.

9. Struktura EVO was stiff for its day, but with a relatively short upper cuff and only one upper buckle, it’s way out of its league in the current rankings. Plus Lowa has introduced two stiffer versions since then.
I am not very familiar with this boot. Laser and Idris put it on 70-80. Where would you put them?

10. The three-buckle Aero is also way out of its league. Or at least back in fall 2004, when I was trying to decide between Garmont-Scarpa-Dynafit for a Dyna-compatible boot, all sources indicated that although the three-buckle Aero seemed to have been intended to compete with the Mega & Matrix, it was considerably softer.
These boot didn't existed in 2004, did they? Aren't you confused with the TLT 700?

11. Some of these models are moving targets. Current third-generation Matrix (black switch, slightly different shell colors) is stiffer than the second-gen (grey switch) and Euro-only first gen (three-position switch that everyone hated). Mega stiffness has been tweaked more than once.
Agreed. I have 2nd generation Matrix with TF liners and grey XT tongue, big improvement over the soft yellowish tongue (even softer than Laser's).