Turner vs. Ellsworth

[robnow]

A lot of you are down with the Turners. I haven't heard much on the Ellsworths. Always dug them though. Any info out there on the pivot being on the chainstay vs. seatstay?
I'm looking at RFX, Moment, or 6.6.
And I know, best is to try them.
Will do.

Build quality on Ellsworth looks good!

[MarsB]

Elsworth definitely has some fans, and there are several mags who ride them. There has been some past CS/warranty issues with Tony E. that turned a lot of the crowd off to them, but they are still well-built bikes, AFAIK.

[bagtagley]

A mere glance can cause any Ellsworth to explode into so many unrecognizeable parts that you can't even get it warrantied.

Turners, on the other hand, are made from solid steel and kryptonite, and cannot be broken under any circumstances. If you do break one, by some miracle, Dave Turner will send you 2 replacement frames, a hooker to give you a BJ and pay your rent/mortgage for up to 3 months.

So, with that in mind, the Ellsworth is the obvious choice because HL bikes are legally and religiously forbidden from brake squatting.

[uncle crud]

Ellsworths are not built as sturdy. They use very thinwall tubing, easily dented or pierced. If you ride mostly smoothish trails and don't fall often and avoid all sorts of crashes by riding slowly and babying your frame when you stow it inside a vehicle or on a rack, then maybe an Ellsworth is worth considering. But then you had better hope you never have a warranty issue. Tony Ellsworth's warranty is a joke. It is worded so that whenever he makes a minor change in the model you're riding -- and he makes those changes ALL THE TIME -- he no longer owes you a full warranty. So if he's made one of those tiny changes since you bought your frame, and you have a reason to return it under warranty, you'll find that he tells you that the best he can do is offer you a reduced price on a replacement frame.

I'm not making this up. There are plenty of people who've been jerked around by Tony E.

The only frames he made that ever resulted in decent warranty treatment were the Isis and Joker frames. He's not making them any more.

Supposedly there's a new group running the show over there, but if you ask me, that doesn't matter as much as the fact that it's still Tony Ellsworth in charge of the company, and he's the shady one.

By all accounts, their most popular and famous model, the Truth, rides very well and makes an excellent FS race bike for XC and marathon racing. But you'd better be gentle.

++++++++++++

I'd suggest the RFX or 6.6, both companies will treat you right.

I have a 6-Pack, which is what the RFX was called in 2005. It's an outstanding bike, I can't say anything but great things about it.

As to the pivot location change on the Turner, I think you'll find that there hasn't been a single honest review that compared the Horst and TNT linkage Turners and found any problem with the new TNT linkage bike.

And of course, the Intense is VPP. Kidwoo and Rontele can tell you about that bike.

[Rontele]

pechelman owns a Moment and really likes his alot. I think he actually wrecked a frame and got a replacement from Ellsworth, but he will have more info on that.

I love the 6.6 and think it is an amazing trailbike. Though I am fairly certain you cannot go wrong between an Intense and a Turner.

[rideit]

Tony Ellsworth is a piece of shit cock-gobbling douche-tard.

Just ask anyone deep in the industry.

I was a dealer for them, I know firsthand.

They do, however, have some very nice, well engineered bikes.
And they have more than a few dogs.
Caveat Emptor.

[brettf]

if you want a full suspension 24-hour specialist or marathon bike, the truth is still hard to beat. outside of that, I think they do have some nice bikes... but the price and warranty stories have always kept me away... not that my input helps your decision any... heh.

[Arty50]

I have beat the living snot out of my 5Spot and it rides like the first day I got it. No cracks, breaks, nada. There's no way an Ellsworth would have survived what I've put that bike through.

[kidwoo]

I have beat the living snot out of my 5Spot and it rides like the first day I got it. No cracks, breaks, nada. There's no way an Ellsworth would have survived what I've put that bike through.

Yeah but yours isn't that cool frosty blue color

that's really the best thing about ellsworth bikes......mmmm blue

[fondigley]

I got a Moment and a Dare and they look nice. Ride nice too. I've had issues with them, but overall am happy. Used to have a Specialist and it jumped real nice but traded it in on the Moment.

My first Dare, I hollowed out some linkage by the bottom bracket and it trashed the frame. They tried to fix it, by selling me a new rear triangle, but it didn't work right. Then just sent the bike back and got a crash replacement as I wasn't the original owner. Then got my 02 and it has worked fine ever since I put a steel headset on it, began to ovalize from dirt jumps. Thats when I realized I needed a specific dirt jump rig and bought my specialist.

05 got the Moment, been pretty good, but there is a possibility that there was some tiny balls of paint or metal in the frame from the factory and it made a few circles around my fork steerer in the frame. That fork later broke at Keystone as a friend was riding it, after I got my 36. Putting my 36 on is when I noticed the inside frame issue. Cleaned it out real good and taped up the tubes and it has been fine.

So I have had some issues, but both work fine. And did I mention they make some girls wet. Sorry I can't outdo Bags, above. He should be a salesman for Turner.

[phatfreeheeler]

These flame wars are lame. One man does not a company make. I don't care what it says on the down tube, I care how the bike rides. All the people I've spoken with at Ellsworth have been very helpful.

When I bought my ID (2 years ago) I had first tried a 5 spot (and many others) and liked how the ID felt better. I ride the ID hard and it's been a great bike. Does it have a couple dents? Yes. Does that hurt how it rides? No. I'm pretty sure that a Turner, or a Titus, or a Santa Cruz, or even a Yeti would have gotten those same dents. Either way, who cares as long as it rides great. Even the legendary 5 spots have been broken.

At this point they are not using the same suspension design so why are these the only two bikes you wanted to compare. Oh yeah to start a stupid flame war What about Ventana's, they're a kick ass boutique bike too.

Lately all I've heard is that Customer Service has been great for both Turner and Ellsworth in the past couple years.

If I sound touchy, it's because I think it's BS that people flame companies on the internet. Being honest is one thing, but people seem to over do it for no reason other than to pump up their own egos (or they are just whiny bitches). It's too public and the company has no way to really defend themselves. Remember, if you actually succeeded in hurting the company you would be hurting a bunch of innocent people just trying to make a living. It's like bombing a country instead of just taking out the leader. You're missing your target.

In the end, go ride them, talk to the local dealers and then decide. Buy what YOU like, not what anyone else likes.

[hick]

Phatfeeheeler- I don't think anyone is starting a flame war here. I think Robnow is just looking for some first hand experiences with the bikes he is looking at. That being said, on with my Ellsworth bashing.

My wife has a five spot and I have an ellsworth moment. Her 5 spot has been great. My moment has some issues. The frame eats seat posts. I love how the bike rides, but there is a weld on the inside of the seat tube that scratched the shit out of my seat post to the point of having to replace the post. I then sanded the inside of the seat tube out as best as I could to save the new post. Seatpost scratching still continues. Took it to a shop and they said they could shave down the inside with some tool (for 30 bucks plus I'd have to buy a bigger post). Went home contineued to lightly sand. Quality craftsmanship my ass. Long story short, go with a Turner or Intense, I would not be on the moment if it weren't for the great deal I got on the new frame they are way, way over priced for what you get. Oh and my top tube is dented. My fault though, brush fit resulted in the bike being tossed over the low bank.

[skiguide]

It's too public and the company has no way to really defend themselves.

that's not really true at all...companies can hire people like me for online reputation management

but for the most part, I agree with you, it's an inherent part of the web community, it's not going to change, and it will definitely become a bigger issue as social media continues to grow.

and that takes the discussion completely off topic. but the point is, all companies have to consider the power of the web (deserve dissing or not) as part of their marketing and customer service strategy.

[homerjay]

I've got a Turner and have some issues with the quality of the frame. Minor stuff, but I bought a boutique bling bike and it bums me out. It rides great, though. I rode my friends turner with the HL this fall and it kinda felt better than mine.

Don't go to Mtbr.com and ask this, those dudes would get on their knees and blow Dave Turner if they had the chance.

[Rontele]

Don't go to Mtbr.com and ask this, those dudes would get on their knees and blow Dave Turner if they had the chance.

Heh. I got flamed for posting a poll about who drinks the Kool Aid more, the 29er forum or the Turner forum.

You have a flux, right? What was wrong with it?

[flowtron]

Yadda yadda.... It's like bombing a country instead of just taking out the leader. You're missing your target.

In the end, go ride them, talk to the local dealers and then decide. Buy what YOU like, not what anyone else likes.

Somebody's feeling got hurt.
I kind of agree with you actually, but I've heard so many TE rants I think I'm a bit numb to them.
What nobody can dispute is that the ride quality of Ellsworths is amazing. Suspension works great, the bikes feel fast, lively and smooth.....however, there truly is a durability issue for harsher and larger riders, you honestly can't dispute that either.
A few of use have worked in shops that sold Ellsworths and have seen first hand what happens. It got to the point that when a customer brought in a Truth for a tune up, the first thing I'd do was inspect the frame below the pivot gusset on the seat tube for cracks before getting elbow deep in grease and hydro fluid, THEN discovering that.
If you are light, smooth and/or competitive an ellsworth could be a great choice. If yer bigger, not-so-smooth or like dropping to flat for some reason I'd def. stay away.

[homerjay]

Heh. I got flamed for posting a poll about who drinks the Kool Aid more, the 29er forum or the Turner forum.

You have a flux, right? What was wrong with it?

The water bottle cage mounts spin in the frame, and the frame has little bulges in it where the mounts are. I can get it replaced, though, but I'm pretty lazy and don't feel like tearing down my bike right now. Without zip ties holding it together, it would rattle around like a 1952 schwinn jalopy. Minor issue, but I like to use water bottle cages because sometimes I do pretty long rides.

It has a hudge dent in the downtube, too, from kicking up a rock into it. I guess that was my fault, but it certainly wasn't noticed when it happened.

[pechelman]

pechelman owns a Moment and really likes his alot. I think he actually wrecked a frame and got a replacement from Ellsworth, but he will have more info on that.

Long story short

Bought and old Isis for 650.
Found a Crack in the rear swing arm.
Sent swing arm back.
Added 800$ for a brand new moment frame with DHX5.0
Equaled a fully built up 2006 Moment for under 1500.
Rode this bike for 60ish miles, heard a creak when grinding uphill from my bb area.
Tore everything down thinking I assembled it with dirt.
Found a CRACK (sonofa) on the downtube\bb weld.
Took frame back to shop told me it would probably be a week or two.
Left shop. Shop called my cell phone in 10minutes.
"Ellsworth is sending a frame next day so you can have it for this weekend"

Pretty great service that I got I think.
Now I cannot speculate on what UncleCrud says if they change the models what will happen if I find another crack or something. All I can tell you is my experience. A far as I know as well, Im the only person to have sent in a moment frame for a warranty. ONLY person, and I ride like a grandma usually.

ride quality
anyway, the bike rides incredibly well. I have very little frame of reference for comparison, but it seriously rides fantastic. Climbs wonderfully, tracks better than my old steel hard tail, and descends amazing. Great ride for sure.
Is it worth the $2300 for the frame new. Honestly I dont think any bike frame is worth that much. I think Id be willing to pay up to 1500ish for the frame.


build quality
Externally, the fit and finish and quality of machining and welds are superb.
Ive done a lot of NC\manual machnining and TONS of TIG welding....so Im not just talking out my ass here.
Internally, fit and finish needs a little help. Lots of metal chips lefts inside the frame. Burrs left on edges. BB should have been chased at the factory for heavens sake. I am also unimpressed with their sheilding technique when welding. Its left a lot of flaky oxidized slag looking stuff on the backside of the weld....particularly where my first moment cracked. My new frame which I have, has this same poor finish on the inside where the crack began its life.

Furthermore, their machining on the BB itself is a little poor imo for 2300.
Lots of chatter marks, ie more places for cracks to start.
Poorly centered, ie you can see the over and undercut portions of the BB bore that they cut after welding.

tubing thickness
Seems normal to me....especially in comparison to my other frames and in comparison to that old Isis front triangle I still have. The isis taps a really high frequency and just sounds like foil. The moment sounds like its thicker when I flick it. Granted thats pretty qualitative, but its all I can give you without cutting my frame apart (not gonna happen)


Search for my threads on the moment
Should fill in any gaps Ive left.
pm me if youve got more ellsworth moment specific questions.

[uncle crud]

I've got a Turner and have some issues with the quality of the frame. Minor stuff, but I bought a boutique bling bike and it bums me out. It rides great, though. I rode my friends turner with the HL this fall and it kinda felt better than mine.

Don't go to Mtbr.com and ask this, those dudes would get on their knees and blow Dave Turner if they had the chance.

As someone who's owned Ellsworth bikes and now has 2 Turners for a good reason, I wonder whether your friend's Horst Turner felt better than your Turner because of the setup of the bike or the suspension. And I wonder what are your "issues," because Dave Turner's pretty damned solid on fixing every thing that goes wrong with any customer's Turner. The dorkwad Homers on MTBR include 2 morons who drove their cars into the garage with the Turner on top, and DT got them replacement frames for very very very low prices, much better treatment than any of my friends has received from Ellsworth.

Not trying to flame anyone or anything. I'm offering what I know and asking for details.

You said a water bottle boss spins in the frame? I'd like to see that to ensure that it's not a stripped bolt. If the boss itself is improperly welded you would be wise to replace that frame's triangle, the bad weld could become a stress riser.

I don't know what you mean about "noise", that's the kind of thing that a lot of mechanically un-savvy people talk about and it really doesn't tell anyone anything. Bicycles are full of moving parts and most of them require some form of lubrication, and if not properly lubed they will make noise.

As to a cosmetic bulge, unless you're a welding instructor I have a hard time believing that you're describing something significant, but a picture would tell a lot more than an off-hand story.

I'll say that I have given thought to buying a Sultan 29er Turner and the idea of the switch to TNT doesn't bother me one bit, since those whose views I know and trust have advised that the difference is imperceptible in similarly set up bikes.

But if you have more detailed info to the contrary, I think it would help everyone reading this thread to hear about it.

++++++++++++++

pechelman,

I had an Isis that broke the swingarm. They treated me well on that, got me a new swingarm within a week, no charge. But I have quite a few friends who have had main tube failures on Truths from basic riding. One friend's downtube crumpled like a cardboard tube right in the middle. No warranty on any of them. All of them left to eat a $2000 frame that made them very happy when they were riding it. None would buy an Ellsworth again, regardless of the ride quality. As I said, I haven't heard any beefs on the way Ellsworths ride. That doesn't seem to be the issue. And in the end, this is all just information offered to someone who asked for it. It's not meant as a "last word" on anything. The only thing I have any sort of last word on is the Ellsworth warranty. As a lawyer who has lititaged product liability and spent a fair amount of time drafting commercial contracts and other documents, I will say without reservation that the Ellsworth warranty is one of the most shady documents I've ever seen from a company that speaks pridefully of its quality and customer service in its public representations. The warranty document alone makes me avoid Ellsworth, even though I had good service with the Isis I owned.

Anyone is free to believe that things are blown out of proportion in internet discussion. On that principle, then, most of the Maggots' experiences with various bits of ski equipment should be discarded, but I don't see a lot of discarding going on in here.

Food for thought, anyway.

[homerjay]

As someone who's owned Ellsworth bikes and now has 2 Turners for a good reason, I wonder whether your friend's Horst Turner felt better than your Turner because of the setup of the bike or the suspension. And I wonder what are your "issues," because Dave Turner's pretty damned solid on fixing every thing that goes wrong with any customer's Turner. The dorkwad Homers on MTBR include 2 morons who drove their cars into the garage with the Turner on top, and DT got them replacement frames for very very very low prices, much better treatment than any of my friends has received from Ellsworth.

Not trying to flame anyone or anything. I'm offering what I know and asking for details.

I'll say that I have given thought to buying a Sultan 29er Turner and the idea of the switch to TNT doesn't bother me one bit, since those whose views I know and trust have advised that the difference is imperceptible in similarly set up bikes.

But if you have more detailed info to the contrary, I think it would help everyone reading this thread to hear about it.

Read my response to Rontele's question, that is the problem with my frame. Turner has agreed to replace the front triangle, so their CS is great, it's just the fact that it happened to a bike that I really stretched myself financially to purchase bums me out. Oh, and my RP3 shock shit the bed after 6 months of riding, too. Not a Turner issue, but it added to my list of bike frustrations.

My friends HL flux felt a little better, that's all, especially under braking. No, I didn't set the shock exactly, etc., this isn't a 'controlled' experiment. I'm not a suspension geek, I just ride alot and judge purely by feel. I'm just not quite convinced that I didnt' buy an overpriced Kona.

I'm just trying to throw a different opinion out there than the usual "I want to suck DT's cock" attitude.

[kidwoo]

HJ........stick a helicoil in there. It should be stronger than the original threads.

[uncle crud]

I'm just trying to throw a different opinion out there than the usual "I want to suck DT's cock" attitude.

Dickhead, if you think I'm just spouting some faggot desire to fellate Dave Turner, you really don't know much about me or how I spend my money. I am a poor fuck who doesn't have much to spend. My income for the past 3 years has been under $10k each year. When I buy shit it's the product of a lot of saving and sacrifice. And I'm stoked on Turners because of how they ride, not because I want to suck anyone's cock, not because it's a "bling" name, not because of the dorkwads in MTBR Homerland and the need to "belong" to some group of dilberts. Even if I were inclined to do that juvenile act of posing with my bike and ski equipment, where I live and ride there is no pose value in owning anything. There aren't enough riders for that to make a difference. I never see but 2 or 3 people in a week of 5-7 rides per week during riding season. Most that I see I'm not stopping and talking to.

Now if you want to get all asswipe about it and say that my stoke on a bike that works well for my riding style is all about sucking someone's cock, then that makes you the true cocksucker, fuckface.

We now return you to your flame-free zone. Apologies to all except homerjay, who seems to have issues with people who don't have issues with their Turners.

[pechelman]

2 quick things

I was under the impression most water bottle bosses were soldered, brazed, or glued in rather than welded.

UC, its good to have both sides of the story, and I think we can all appreciate the experience and insight you have into Ellsworth. Honestly, Im not 100% certain Id buy another frame of theirs either because of that warranty document. Chances are though, this bike will last me a very long time, long enough that I can see how that company deals with future warranty issues.

Also worth mentioning, that their Truth is designed with a much lower safety factor than is a moment. Theyre each designed for 2 different things. However, thats still no excuse for a tube buckling\crumpling like you describe.
Thats just plain bad engineering no matter how you cut it.

[Rontele]

You guys really like talking about sucking cock.

Just an observation.

[homerjay]

Dickhead, if you think I'm just spouting some faggot desire to fellate Dave Turner, you really don't know much about me or how I spend my money. I am a poor fuck who doesn't have much to spend. My income for the past 3 years has been under $10k each year. When I buy shit it's the product of a lot of saving and sacrifice. And I'm stoked on Turners because of how they ride, not because I want to suck anyone's cock, not because it's a "bling" name, not because of the dorkwads in MTBR Homerland and the need to "belong" to some group of dilberts. Even if I were inclined to do that juvenile act of posing with my bike and ski equipment, where I live and ride there is no pose value in owning anything. There aren't enough riders for that to make a difference. I never see but 2 or 3 people in a week of 5-7 rides per week during riding season. Most that I see I'm not stopping and talking to.

Now if you want to get all asswipe about it and say that my stoke on a bike that works well for my riding style is all about sucking someone's cock, then that makes you the true cocksucker, fuckface.

We now return you to your flame-free zone. Apologies to all except homerjay, who seems to have issues with people who don't have issues with their Turners.

Jesus fucking christ, I wasn't even talking about you, I was talking about the predominant attitude with the nerds on Mtbr.com. Everyone loves their turner, I'm just not 100% there.

I wasn't directing any of my comments at you, and I apologize if it came across that way. But you can fuck off for getting go goddamn defensive and in turn attacking me about a fucking mountain bike brand.