Burliest AT setup

[upallnight]

I have also skied with lots of 'good' skiers who swear by AT gear at the resort. To a one, they cannot hang.

you ski with the wrong people.

seriously.

most people who ski AT gear and claim to ski "hard" are really glorified tourers. this is true.

but to assume that your experience with a group of people means the gear is the limiting factor is to make the wrong assumption from your information. AT gear isn't going to make anyone a better skier, but a good skier can ski any gear.

it has much more to do with the rider than their choice of shoes. AT gear is neither inherently good or bad. it also won't serve as a crutch as stiff alpine boots do for many skiers who can't even flex their ankles in the things.

i'm fine with your statement...until it becomes a broad, sweeping statement about all people based on your experience.

the average age of people using AT gear tends to be higher, too...but it's cool that you, on your alpine gear, can ski faster than any one of the people you know riding AT gear in the resorts you frequent.

respectfully...i've skied with a ton of "good" skiers who cannot hang on their alpine gear. maybe these people are not really "good" after all.

[Particle]

respectfully...i've skied with a ton of "good" skiers who cannot hang on their alpine gear. maybe these people are not really "good" after all.

Yeah, that was kinda the point I was inferring...no one I know or have ever met and skied with (and this is skiing the Wasatch for the past 5 seasons and CO for the previous 3) has ever been all that 'good' on AT gear--in bounds. Skiers ripping AT gear in the backcountry is a different story. And yes, that is just my experience. Of course there are always exceptions to any sweeping generalization, but hey sometimes those are fun to make

mc_roon and soul, good to hear it. I may be in touch. Or I may just order a fun new BC setup. I've yet to invest in the idea of a 'bc quiver'...this is trouble.

[soul_skier]

what size is your boot, if you fit into a medium naxo and you want to go for a tour sometime in between dec 16 and jan 15th, i'll be itching to get my dbs out, and you're welcome to try the bros...

[Xover]

I've been a skier for 27 years and I've skied AT gear for the past 6 of those, and the plain fact is that AT gear simply does not ski as well as alpine gear. It. just. doesn't.

J,

I'm sure you're gonna have different thoughts than what I lay down below (please keep in mind that I hear ya 100% though), but I went through your same thought delima (sp?) a few years back. I absolutely fuggin' hated my AT setup for all the reasons you listed above + some. What cured it?? Just getting a stiffer toungue that fit the existing boot well (i.e. denali xt to the original garmont adrenaline), mounting the original freeride (- the toe shim) to a wide ski that matches the boots flex (i.e. the original goat) and always skiing the boot in the most forward position possible + about 6 months of getting used to it and really keeping my mind tune to whatever conditions I was skiing and "emphasizing" the known technique tricks for that particular condition. This works about 95% of the time (the 5% of the time it don't is on hardpack in-bounds headed outta anyway or in bc conditions that suck anyway ... so no lost sleep). Through all that I've gained the confidence to charge whatever I want to in the bc.

I've oftened fantisized about a slightly burlier set-up or even a lighter, faster setup, but I fully subscribe to the theory that if it ain't broke I ain't gonna try and fix it.

So, (short of the long) my suggestion(s) to you (assuming you've got an exceptionally narrow foot) would be to get the burliest, narrowest boot (meaning shell) you could find - which will most likely be a Garmont - and put an intuition liner in it and experiment with the different mods that some other guy posted recently in the tech forum (i.e. boosters, krypton tongues, etc.) until you find what you are happy with. You're are a technically solid enough skier that you can adapt to whatever set up you decide to go with to charge whatever line you choose - just pay your AT dues!!! Then get a ski in the size you want that compliments your boot set up. And, who gives a big, phat shit about in bounds skiing on your AT setup ... all those guys are either tight asses or gapers; you got the connections to have Cadillac set ups of both Alpine and AT.

Honestly, the biggest problem I have now a-days (as someone else alluded to above) is the going back and forth frequently between pow days in bounds and pow days outta bounds ... always takes some focus to "adjust" quickly to what setup I'm on that day (i.e. alpine or A.T.).

[upallnight]

Yeah, that was kinda the point I was inferring...no one I know or have ever met and skied with (and this is skiing the Wasatch for the past 5 seasons and CO for the previous 3) has ever been all that 'good' on AT gear--in bounds. Skiers ripping AT gear in the backcountry is a different story. And yes, that is just my experience. Of course there are always exceptions to any sweeping generalization, but hey sometimes those are fun to make

mc_roon and soul, good to hear it. I may be in touch. Or I may just order a fun new BC setup. I've yet to invest in the idea of a 'bc quiver'...this is trouble.

hey particle...i was thinking about this further.

couple things before i hit the airport:

1) doug coombs was riding adrenalins, fritschis + seths inbounds and out last year (not 100% of the time). you can believe he was ripping inbounds on AT gear.

2) the typical profile (*typical* but not all) of someone who would ride AT gear inbounds is someone who doesn't own alpine gear and probably (*probably*) spends most of their time in the BC. while this is not a universal truth, people who spend most of their time in the BC get less vert than people who ride lifts, meaning they have less time to work on their downhill technique. in many cases, they are not as technically proficient. seeing these folks inbounds on hardpack, therefore, could show them to be what they are: solid skiers who can get down variable conditions, but not "great" skiers.

the AT gear won't hide anything for them -- in some senses it's a more true barometer of one's skill as the gear doesn't compensate for the individual.

one need only look to many of our esteemed members who do tons of touring for evidence of this. while they are definitely amazing adventurers and solid, when you see them in front of the lens the camera often reveals shaky downhill technique. does it take away from what they do? no. if you saw them skiing under a liftline would you turn your head? NO WAY! if they dedicated themselves to downhill, they could improve, but that's not their goal and is not the point.

3) not sure how things are in utah, but 'round here the inbounds stuff is the tame/easy stuff....steeper, bigger drops, more variable snow, etc.

so....seeing people rip on AT gear (or any gear) in those circumstances (again, i can only speak for here) is a far better indicator of a "good skier" to me than someone who looks good inbounds.

just some thoughts. there are no absolutes.

and i do agree that many folks who rock AT gear fulltime are mediocre...but then again so are many folks using alpine gear. it's the rider not the ride.

peace.

[laseranimal]

key here is like Xover said you have to get the boots to match the skis. I don't care if you are the second coming of Scot Schmidt, you aren't going to be able to ski 280 flex FFF's with F1's, well I guess you could but it wouldn't be a whole lot of fun.

So many people throw burly skis together with softer flexing AT boots or super burly boots with AT bindings and then compain that the binding interface sucks or that they suck on hardpack.

Z was right in another thread, the reason they're are different bindings and boots is because there are different types of skiers who have different goals in mind, and your quiver choice is going to reflect that.

Most of my BC consists of skiing laps on 500' of vert at an old closed down ski area. I used to be a trekker and explosive with alpine boots guy but I got tired of hauling all that weight up for little bonus on the tiny amount of time I spent going downhill. So I moved to TM:X's and freerides and Strukturas and that was better, but still was overkill for the terrain. This year I've gotten F1's and Dynafits and can't wait to see how much more energy I have for extra laps.

For a inbounds fat ski so I mounted my Pow +'s with freerides and plan on skiing them with alpine boots. I figure the weight savings over 957's and a PS plate will make them easier to muscle around in tighter spots. And since I'm only going to use them on soft snow days and the fact that my pow+ has a rockered tip and tail hardpack performance is not an issue. Besides the way the season is starting here on the EC I might only get 1 or 2 days out of this setup. I debated selling them but the fact that Pow +'s are durable as hell makes them ideal for EC powder days when its 5-8 over no base that turns to chopped up crud by 9:45 in the morning.

For my third setup I've modified the Strukturas with a front and rear spoiler and plan on using them with some of Mntlions helidaddys and freerides. This is the big experiment. I've got myself convinced that this would be an ideal slackcountry setup, and one thing we do have here on the EC is slackcountry. Big Jay, the Chin, Slidebrook basin, Mittersill, even at K-mart a short hike can find some good stuff. I've skied freerides and daddies before but it was with alpine boots and it was pretty solid. I skied a couple of runs with the unmodified strukturas opening day at K-mart just to see if the setup was feasible and minus the slop in the upper part of the boot which has been fixed by adding spoilers I could ski normally on anything but scraped off manmade.

[lemon boy]

Come out to UT and show me what the hell you're talking about with the tlt and dynafit toes? What's the heel piece again? I'm cornfused. Can you just drill holes in your boots for the Dynafit pins?

J-
Mount just a d-fit toe piece directly to the ski in front of your alpine binding (~2/3s of a bootlenght or so). Either use the toe of the AB or a square tubing type protector/riser to go right over the AB toe for the heel elevator. It'll be a permanent lift but honestly how often do you flat tour there, especially with such a burls rig? If Andy can fab you some kind of plate so you can slide it on/off so much the better although I doubt that it'd cause many real problems unless you've started crossing your tips a lot.

I have no idea how it'd be to skin so far forward, might be even better, might be awful. Somewhere there's a TT topic on converting a boot to d-fits.

I originally offered this as a total joke, the more I think about it though the less unlikely it seems for this particular application.

[soul_skier]

J-
Mount just a d-fit toe yy piece directly to the ski in front of your alpine binding (~2/3s of a bootlenght or so). Either use the toe of the AB or a square tubing type protector/riser to go right over the AB toe for the heel elevator. It'll be a permanent lift but honestly how often do you flat tour there, especially with such a burls rig? If Andy can fab you some kind of plate so you can slide it on/off so much the better although I doubt that it'd cause many real problems unless you've started crossing your tips a lot.

I have no idea how it'd be to skin so far forward, might be even better, might be awful. Somewhere there's a TT topic on converting a boot to d-fits.

I originally offered this as a total joke, the more I think about it though the less unlikely it seems for this particular application.

possible, but i'm pretty sure it would be auful skinning. the miracle of touring bindings allows the toepiece to me somewhat centered, therefore similar weight distribution on either side of the toe, therefore a reasonably balanced ski while skinning. However, moving the toepiece in front of a pair of alpine bindings, you not only have an un-even distribution of weight in the ski its self, but you have the weight of alpine bindings also contributing to make the back of the ski heavy as shit, which means you'll be dragging your tails like it's your job, which might be good for breaking trail, but will be less than great everywhere else. all of this is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me

[lemon boy]

I agree that it might be awful. I could see it not being so bad too, with how you stand and lean back I think you'd be weighting an impressive rearward stretch of skins and this is for the wa was where IME they don't do a lot of rolling tours and long approaches and instead get in steep skins and go. And it might rule at trailbreaking on deep wa wa days. Won't know until somebody goes there.

[Damian Sanders]

2) the typical profile (*typical* but not all) of someone who would ride AT gear inbounds is someone who doesn't own alpine gear and probably (*probably*) spends most of their time in the BC. while this is not a universal truth, people who spend most of their time in the BC get less vert than people who ride lifts, meaning they have less time to work on their downhill technique. in many cases, they are not as technically proficient. seeing these folks inbounds on hardpack, therefore, could show them to be what they are: solid skiers who can get down variable conditions, but not "great" skiers.

Very telling.....

[Particle]

Great discussion all. X - I do agree with most of what you said, my AT setup (freeride/sickbird/crispi diablo), like I said early on in the thread, is absolutely great. In fact I like it so much I'm not even going to change it out this year, just keeping it as-is. It is a nice balance between moderate weight, a decent length ski for skinning (185), and for being able to charge pretty hard on the way back down. And 98% of the time I am just making huge pow turns in the bc anyway - that's the reason I'm there. And I'm almost totally happy with my setup for those conditions (I can never be 100% happy with any gear setup, it's just a rule). I do want to spend some bootfitting time this year and try to get rid of some of the excess volume in my Crispis.

As for the "ultimate big mountain assualt vehicle AT rig"...LB that is interesting. It could be awful but it could be actually work. Now if only tlt toe pieces were cheap and easy to come by...

This quandary has a lot in common with mountain biking. How big of a bike can and should you put a small ring on so you can climb it to the top? Some people won't climb anything over 30lbs. I'll grind a 40+ lb rig to the top of a sick DH just to get more fun outta the down. As much as I'm tempted to go superlight on the touring setup, I always tend to find myself going bigger travel bikes/fatter & longer skis, etc.

[lemon boy]

Now if only tlt toe pieces were cheap and easy to come by...

start trolling for a worked pair of any vintage bindings they don't need to be nice for what you want maybe you know somebody in a warranty dept. somewhere that sees em sometimes.....

[dookeyXXX]

"2) the typical profile (*typical* but not all) of someone who would ride AT gear inbounds is someone who doesn't own alpine gear and probably (*probably*) spends most of their time in the BC. while this is not a universal truth, people who spend most of their time in the BC get less vert than people who ride lifts, meaning they have less time to work on their downhill technique. in many cases, they are not as technically proficient. seeing these folks inbounds on hardpack, therefore, could show them to be what they are: solid skiers who can get down variable conditions, but not "great" skiers."

Great observation Upallnite!

I totally experienced this when I first skied with my friend's brother in Sun Valley. He only has a BC set up (Fritches, some old Rossi--the "flame tipped one"-- not sure what type boots, but pretty sure they're Garmonts). When I met him at SV he had already logged like 50 days of skiing that season to my paltry 12. We hit the groomers and I was dusting him on my 2 sized too big Salomon boots (got 'em in exchange for a six-pack to tide me over until I could scrape the funds for real boots) and my demo Rossi B2's. He got down every run we did, but a few times he looked out of control.

Last season we hooked up again, this time in Utah, and again he'd already logged 50 days in compared to my 10 or so. This time, however, he was much better on the groomers (I had a hard time keeping up with him) and he totally kicked my ass on any of the off-piste stuff. He'd gotten new skis (Havocs), but the rest of his set-up was the same.

[jfost]

Very telling.....

are you calling out UAN's skills?

I can verify he is good at group buys...

[upallnight]

are you calling out UAN's skills?

I can verify he is good at group buys...

damian sanders wasn't calling me out, i don't think (maybe he was), but my comment still stands: MANY/MOST folks riding that gear don't rip.

not gonna say if i'm good or if i suck. i have an opinion on that, but it's not really relevant to anyone other than me. i do know plenty of friends who are backcountry guides out of a resort who groan when they get stuck w/ people on AT gear, and i also know plenty of people that can't hang on that type of gear from my own experience.

anyway, when i ski full throttle with folks on alpine gear, it's usually a revelation to them about what can be done on AT gear. it ain't just for pussies, even though lots of people pussyfoot around on 'em.

then again, i see tons of people using the alpine gear as a crutch or getting totally worked by something that is too much for 'em.

i'd rather not debate the choice of tool - rider ability is a far bigger factor in the equation, in my opinion.

[Particle]

OK I'm stoked now. Trigger pulled on some Sanouks Getting mounted with Freeride Pluses, should be a fun setup for when I want to go a little bit bigger in the bc...teeheehee.

[kidwoo]

Freeride Pluses,

At least you won't experience insta-patchuli smell.


UAN's comments are pretty right on....that was definitely me my first year of skiing...almost all bc and freaked on hardpack/variable stuff.

Last year at sonora pass I even asked one of my buddies when looking around at some of the peeps skiing there "you ever notice how backcountry skiers™ ski really goofy?".

[upallnight]

At least you won't experience insta-patchuli smell.


UAN's comments are pretty right on....that was definitely me my first year of skiing...almost all bc and freaked on hardpack/variable stuff.

Last year at sonora pass I even asked one of my buddies when looking around at some of the peeps skiing there "you ever notice how backcountry skiers™ ski really goofy?".

too true.

look at some of the TRs posted here, even those by some prolific/esteemed posters. good adventures, good times.... umm...not so much on the skiing style. the photos & TRs are great and the adventures are hard to top, but the descent suffers for their pursuit of the ascent and abandonment of the lift, and it does show (though perhaps doesn't matter other than it allows people like those posting in this thread to blame it on the gear and then point to those examples to make their point).

it's understandable when you think about it. all the years of riding lifts helps improve one's style and comfort on the way down; putting in several million vertical feet of descents during a season (at a resort it's not hard to get 20-30k vert in a day...and up to 50-60 depending on how you push it) is bound to make anyone more solid on the way down vs someone who gets out in the BC 100 days and does 5k vert a day (which would be a *very* high estimate. most TRs posted here involve <5k vert...and most TRs only get posted of the big days. sure, people do 10k+ days, but they're generally not day-in, day-out -- 'cept that one man/machine in canada.)

(caveat: some people who ski lifts all day, every day still ski poorly or with poor style.)

[Dirk Diggler]

Skiing untracked pow everyday is worth losing a little edge on the ski area stuff to me. I haven't skied a mogul in 6 or 8 years so I'm sure I'm not as sharp as someone who does it everyday. They can have that shit. If something has a track in it, I don't want it anyway.

As for burly AT rigs, I'm having religious experiences on my DP 120's with comforts. Waiting for a few more days to review but the DPS are well worth the money and the wait.

[Brianskis]

And then came the Duke...

Bump for a good summer browse. Sure is fun to read about the "burliest" AT setup pre-Duke and subsequent options...

[Powdurr]

And then came the Duke...

And then came the tour...

[MTT]

Interesting thread bump.

How much has the conversation really changed.

I pulled the Liners out of my Solomon Boots and shoved them in my Garmonts, Doubled my confidence in crappy back country conditions.

I think i am realy to retire my Free Rides and make the Dynafit move. Jonstrom has made that possible without having to have a dedicated Touring ski.

[marshalolson]

And then came the Duke...

Bump for a good summer browse. Sure is fun to read about the "burliest" AT setup pre-Duke and subsequent options...

interesting. re-reading this old thread made me realize the issue back then was more the BOOT than anything.

c.2006 tech compatible boots were BUCKETS.

real performance lasted AT boots now out there really has made the difference IMO.

you can ski tech on a tour and FKS or 916 inbounds. on the same skis, and same boots, with the same performance.

i feel that dukes were more a stop-gap than anything while the boots caught up.

[Brianskis]

Definitely not saying the Duke is the be all and end all. However I think the Duke hitting the market, and it's subesquent success, gave companies throughout the industry the confidence to jump into the AT market and begin to develop the ever expanding array of AT gear we are seeing today.

[Hugh Conway]

Definitely not saying the Duke is the be all and end all. However I think the Duke hitting the market, and it's subesquent success, gave companies throughout the industry the confidence to jump into the AT market and begin to develop the ever expanding array of AT gear we are seeing today.

I think you should stop sucking Duke cock. Duke the binding who's fans are as annoying as the basketball teams