Subaru Stability Control

[ccwaskier]

I am looking at new cars, subaru's, a4, 4 runner, and have heard the importance of dynamic stability control. It comes standard on the 4 runner and a4, but it seems you have to get the top of the line 3.0 VDC outback to get stability control. I hear stability control can make a big difference in snow and is important to have. Do the less expensive subaru's have stability control or plain old awd.

Also, can people comment on subaru's durability on washboarded dirt roads. I currently have a 98 volvo v70 xc and feel many expensive parts have broken in part from driving on washboarded roads and all the vibration. The main reason i am considering a 4 runner is because i am tired of breaking my car and think i truck frame would hold up better, but 4 runners get really bad mileage, especially with the v8.

Thanks.

[Lurch]

If you are sick of fixing your car do not get an A4.

[ccwaskier]

If you are sick of fixing your car do not get an A4.

yeah, thats the main reason i am looking at a subaru or toyota

[lemon boy]

I'm sure our cadre of boy ralliers will be along shortly to contradict me but:
trucks simply hold up to washboards better but handle worse on them

a subaru is a car and will get pummeled by the wb's soon enough.

do you really drive on washboards that much?

stability control = no substitute for good driving skillz

[Z]

I'm sure our cadre of boy ralliers will be along shortly to contradict me but:
trucks simply hold up to washboards better but handle worse on them

a subaru is a car and will get pummeled by the wb's soon enough.

do you really drive on washboards that much?

stability control = no substitute for good driving skillz

I agree. Driving a subie on washboards just feels shitty. Handles fine but just doesn't feel like something that should be done with any regularity.

And I love that my 99 impreza has no stablility control. AWD + snowtires = I'm in full control all the time, no need for computer assistance. Being able to turn it on and off could be nice though....

[uglymoney]

Get the Subie unless your doing some serious rock hopping on those gravel roads. The US needs some breathing room right now anyway.

Oil is a political and economic problem, not to speak of the enviromental concerns.

Getting a truck simply to navigate a little washboard on a gravel road is simply not logical imo. If you need a truck for heavy hauling, or for serious off road duty, thats a different story. By all means.

My 02 Outback, used for everything from towing, to hauling to mild off roading, has taken a set of front pads since it was new. I've also had to adjust the e-brake to keep it tight a couple of times. Other than that, just the scheduled fluid/filter/plug changes have kept things running smoothly for 60k and 4 1/2 years of use.

[squirrelmurphy]

lb is right, stability control is no match for AWD, snow tires, and driving skillz

[Cirquerider]

I have a Murano with AWD and vehicle dynamic control that can be switched on and off and a Legacy GT AWD. Its really pretty amazing what VDC can do. On unseen black ice going up to Kirkwood this winter in the Legacy, I had the sensation of having a flat front tire. Going into curves on a narrow road the car would plow ahead and not respond to turns until the wheel speed was feathered to match road speed. All road feel was gone in these ultra-slick conditions. In the Murano under even worse conditions, the VDC applied diagonal braking to prevent plowing or spin-out. Think about a sharp curve to the left, but the car wants to go straight. VDC applies antilock brake force to the rear left wheel and power to the front and brings you around the curve. If the back end skids out, diagonal braking stops the drift and literally snaps the car back into alignment with the direction of travel.

Playing around with the system, I have pulled into large snowpacked lots and done full accellerations and turns in an attempt to induce skids and loss of control. The best I could do was cause some sideways drifting, in spite of the dumbest driving I could do. Of course with the VDC off the vehicle snapped into a 180 and kept going.

I'm all good with driver skills and drifting in corners, but until you experience what a properly implemented computer controlled VDC can accomplish where consequences are high, don't knock it. Combined with good judgement and skills, it really gives you an edge.

[PNWbrit]

Cirquerider has it right

Even without speaking Sweeedishe this is fairly good demonstration that given equal cars with equal tires the one with DSC will handle snow/ice better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee3i67FGwE0&NR

Doesn't mean you have to have it to get by or that you don't need snow tires or chains or AWD or that being a good driver is just or more important. But it does show that it can recover car from situations no driver on earth could - unless they can control near instant diagonal braking and power application.

[Flexon Phil]

Coming from a 98 XC to a new OB..you will be loving life. I have 8 years of Subie Sales and another 8 of Volvo, the Subie is soooo much better of a car than the Volvo in so many aspects. The A4 IS a sweet ride, especially with the DSG, but Uber expensive, plus no more free maintence. Get the Subie forget a Morano. the AWD shuts off at 30MPH and a tempermental CVT, if you like that style, get the new Mazda CX7 or step up to a FX35, uhhhgleee, but great drive train.

Note: I have NO vested interest in his decision, just going by 20ish years of car business experience.

[LaramieSkiBum]

I had my doubts about VDC and systems like it until I drove a 4runner this winter in the snow. It had a push button disable, and it makes a huge difference. That said, if your driving fast enough that VDC is kicking in, probably ought to be slowing down.


I drive a 06 Outback XT now, but 2007 OB XT / Legacy GT's will come with VDC, not just the 3.0R's. Still very pricy though. The subie handles just fine in the snow and ice, but VDC that could be disabled would be even better

[Benny Profane]

C'mon, Subaru AWD with snows are all you need. As said above, if you feel you need the "stability control", you're probably driving too fast.

[skimasterflex]

C'mon, Subaru AWD with snows are all you need. As said above, if you feel you need the "stability control", you're probably driving too fast.

I went from a 2.5l '96 Legacy GT Wagon to a 3.0l '01 Outback VDC this last year and it's true, the only time I got the VDC to really kick in was when I was totally dicking around slamming into 2-3 foot deep piles on the shoulder at 50+.

I think it depends a whole bunch on a factor that nobody has mentioned yet, and that is the difference in the center of weight of the car. The Outbacks are now several inches higher off the ground than the Legacy (have been since OB's came out but now it's a big difference, like 2-3 inches difference I believe). That is the biggest difference I feel between my OB and my old Legacy wagon is the height. My Legacy didn't need VDC because it was so much lower and it naturally stuck to the ground better. My OB needs the VDC because it is higher.

I would buy a newer Legacy GT Wagon with the turbo over the Non VDC turbo Outbacks because I'd be willing to bet they handle better on snow. I think that is why they are adding the VDC to all OB's for next year because it isn't right to have all that ground clearance on a car that is famous for on snow capabilities without the emergency option of VDC.

As for the guys knocking VDC as if it is a constantly operating aspect of the cars driving that hasn't been my experience. It only seems to come on at all in SUPER sketch scenarios. I've only seen the light come on saying it was readied two or three times, once on a super icy day and twice while actually trying to test it.

[uglymoney]

I've only seen the light come on saying it was readied two or three times, once on a super icy day and twice while actually trying to test it.

You sound like you drive much too conservatively. Step it up!

[lemon boy]

It only seems to come on at all in SUPER sketch scenarios.

Duh, that is the point with the criticism. Not that it is a bad thing to have on a vehicle but you don't "need" it either.

[uglymoney]

Duh, that is the point with the criticism. Not that it is a bad thing to have on a vehicle but you don't "need" it either.

I tend to agree with you for the most part. Snow tires, smart driving, and you generally don't need stability control. There are times though when it would be nice - in particular mixed icing conditions, where you have the possibility of black ice but are driving on wet or treated roads that are not slippery.

I'd much rather receive a warning from that light, than from feeling the car let loose when black ice does take over the pavement. Its being suprised that I worry about, not the conditions themselves.

[Flexon Phil]

I went with a 06 Legacy over an Outback for the better handling and lower CG. I do plan on running 4 (16/215/55) snows on him.

[freshies]

I went with a 06 Legacy over an Outback for the better handling and lower CG. I do plan on running 4 (16/215/55) snows on him.

get the Nokian WR's for that bad boy and you will be rock soild.

[Flexon Phil]

get the Nokian WR's for that bad boy and you will be rock soild.

That is an awesome tire, to be sure. I jsut don't need that agressive...I need an (lack of better term) all season snow tire , 90% of my winter miles are on PA on well cleaned roads, when I get up north is when I need the grip.

[PNWbrit]

I went from a 2.5l '96 Legacy GT Wagon to a 3.0l '01 Outback VDC this last year and it's true, the only time I got the VDC to really kick in was when I was totally dicking around slamming into 2-3 foot deep piles on the shoulder at 50+.

I think it depends a whole bunch on a factor that nobody has mentioned yet, and that is the difference in the center of weight of the car. The Outbacks are now several inches higher off the ground than the Legacy (have been since OB's came out but now it's a big difference, like 2-3 inches difference I believe). That is the biggest difference I feel between my OB and my old Legacy wagon is the height. My Legacy didn't need VDC because it was so much lower and it naturally stuck to the ground better. My OB needs the VDC because it is higher.

I would buy a newer Legacy GT Wagon with the turbo over the Non VDC turbo Outbacks because I'd be willing to bet they handle better on snow. I think that is why they are adding the VDC to all OB's for next year because it isn't right to have all that ground clearance on a car that is famous for on snow capabilities without the emergency option of VDC.

As for the guys knocking VDC as if it is a constantly operating aspect of the cars driving that hasn't been my experience. It only seems to come on at all in SUPER sketch scenarios. I've only seen the light come on saying it was readied two or three times, once on a super icy day and twice while actually trying to test it.

Not sure that higher center of gravity really makes much difference to handling on snow. COG and roll center cause weight transfer in high grip and therefore higher g situations. You could probably argue that a longer travel and softer sprung car would actually get better traction in snowy conditions.

[freshies]

That is an awesome tire, to be sure. I jsut don't need that agressive...I need an (lack of better term) all season snow tire , 90% of my winter miles are on PA on well cleaned roads, when I get up north is when I need the grip.

that is Nokian's all season winter tire, not 100% snow specific. I too drive all over CA for work, and spend roughly 50/50 in the mountains (Tahoe) in the winter and the rest on the freeways of NorCal....its an amazing all season/winter tire. The only all season rated with the mountain/snowflake symbol...

[uglymoney]

Not sure that higher center of gravity really makes much difference to handling on snow. COG and roll center cause weight transfer in high grip and therefore higher g situations. You could probably argue that a longer travel and softer sprung car would actually get better traction in snowy conditions.

Nah. The lower cars are more stable because they tend not to roll or bounce around, conditions that are common even in with no g's (rough roads, roads with camber, braking, etx). They don't load a tire to the point of breaking loose nearly as easily as something taller, which by nature is more prone to bouncing and rolling. Also, take into account wind, which effects high profile vehicles much more.

Increased ride height is good for visibility and for getting over large objects, but thats about it. It be nice if more cars offered suspensions that went up and down with speed.

[Mit]

Nothing beats a good set of these........

[LeeLau]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread for another reason.

Does VDC or Subaru's traction control make a substantial difference for people driving on gravel roads?

Context - I used to drive logging roads a lot in rear wheel drive trucks and am quite used to long oversteering slides. Then drove mid 80 Subarus then a 1999 Legacy wagon and lately I've had a Volvo V70XC for the last while with their DSTC (traction control) but am drawn in subaru again for many reasons too lengthy to list.

I'd prefer to get the base model engine with VDC - sounds like that isn't an option even in 2007 I suppose?

[shmerham]

I'd prefer to get the base model engine with VDC - sounds like that isn't an option even in 2007 I suppose?

Subaru seems resistant to offering the VDC on all but the top-of-the-line vehicles. Given Subaru's stance on safety and control it seems as though it's something they may want to consider adding to all vehicles if they ever need to distinguish themselves (right now there isn't much competition in the awd car market, so they don't need to).

The VDC should "work" on gravel, just as it does on snowy, wet, or icy pavement.