Real Estate Crash thread

[altasnob]

Why does Jackson Hole need more worker housing? Why does Jackson Hole need to continue to grow? There are some places on earth that it just doesn't make sense to try to cram more people into, whether local residents, or tourists. Mountain valleys surrounded by federal lands are one of those places.

[CarlMega]

argument as if they aren't the primary beneficiaries.

Well, it was their land after all. But you could begin to make an argument that flora and fauna are the primary beneficiaries... non-human stakeholders.

What is amusing & sad is when people buy CE land, hugely discounted... and then still want to personally develop it outside the terms of the CE. The entitlement is not to be underestimated. "But but but but I purchased this land why can't I put in a barndominium next to the wetlands? Its muh land"... yeah, your land... that you couldn't afford if it was organically valued and had all the restrictions clearly spelled out for you prior to purchase.

[teleee]

Landowners get tax benefits from putting their land in conservation easements in perpetuity. But those landowners would make massively more money if they didn't put the land in conservation easements and instead sold off the land to be developed (or just developed it themselves). In other words, if all you care about is money, it makes much more sense to develop land than conserve it. People chose to conserve the land for reasons other than bottom line. People like AR and telee want these conservation easement tax perks eliminated to make development even more of a financial benefit compared to conservation. That way, Jackson Hole can look like Salt Lake City.

Where in the actual fuck did I ever say that? Given the choice between development and conservations easements I will always choose the conservation easements. That being said don’t go blowing smoke up my ass telling me that the billionaires creating easements are doing it for the greater good of humanity. If they really wanted to do something for man kind they would go the path of the Rockefeller’s and create land we can all enjoy.



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[altasnob]

Where in the actual fuck did I ever say that?

That book, Billionaire Wilderness, is basically a propaganda piece against conservation easements. Do some abuse the perks of conservation easements? Sure, but that is an IRS enforcement issue. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There's lots of billionaires around Jackson who have donated land to land trusts and those lands are open to the public. A lot of conservation easements that are closed to the public are closed because they are still being used for farming and ranching and have to maintain that use for the rest of time. Open to public can still have restrictions, like no biking, not motors, no hunting, remain on trail, or restricted to certain hours of the day. But it's still open to the public.

The fact that some conservation easements are not open to the public doesn't bother me. The Forest Service, and their billion dollar budget, can barely handle the public's use (and desecration) of the federal lands. It would be ridiculous to tell some small time farmer who decides to put their land into a conservation easement that they have to let the public access their land (which will inevitably lead to garbage being dumped there like on national forest land).

https://jhlandtrust.org/portfolio-it...ss-properties/

[fastfred]

Why does Jackson Hole need more worker housing? Why does Jackson Hole need to continue to grow? There are some places on earth that it just doesn't make sense to try to cram more people into, whether local residents, or tourists. Mountain valleys surrounded by federal lands are one of those places.

places like this growth is the only economy
thats why
and when you have tons and tons of cash you need one person to wipe your ass and another to wipe your nose at the same time because god forbid you do it yourself

growth is the driver
you take away that growth and people like me stop getting rich

[altasnob]

If they really wanted to do something for man kind they would go the path of the Rockefeller’s and create land we can all enjoy.

If you were a billionaire, and you wanted Jackson Hole to remain as pristine as possible for the rest of time, you could donate your land to the US government to be added to the national forests. But there are a growing number of US politicians who want to start selling off federal lands. National Forests, and National Parks, do not have to remain undeveloped for the rest of time. An act of Congress could sell that land off. The US Forest Service allows development and resource extraction on national forests lands (see the ski area and hotels).

Now compare that to a conservation easement. Even if the US goes all right wing, the conservation easement is attached to the property. It can't be easily eliminated by US Congress. It is more protected in perpetuity than if you just handed your land to the US government.

A recent phenomenon, which is interesting to me, is to start gifting these conservation easements to the tribes, with no strings attached. Ballsy, because of the no strings attached, but the thought is that the tribe will manage the land with conservation and preservation in mind. They are doing this around the Methow Valley in Northern Washington, where the Nature Conservancy is giving their land away for free to the Colville Tribe.

[altasnob]

places like this growth is the only economy
thats why
and when you have tons and tons of cash you need one person to wipe your ass and another to wipe your nose at the same time because god forbid you do it yourself

growth is the driver
you take away that growth and people like me stop getting rich

No offense, but why do we need people like you getting rich in places like Jackson Hole. All I care about is that I can continue to pass through these towns on the way to recreate and camp on the public's land. Rich people don't care about growth or the economy of Jackson Hole because they already made their money elsewhere.

I'm sure people think my stance is elitist. But I don't see any sustainable alternative. If you don't want Jackson Hole to be conquered by the ultra rich, the alternative will be sprawl and congestion. That means it takes me more time to pass through town to get to my public land.

[fastfred]

No offense, but why do we need people like you getting rich in places like Jackson Hole. All I care about is that I can continue to pass through these towns on the way to recreate and camp on the public's land. Rich people don't care about growth or the economy of Jackson Hole because they already made their money elsewhere.

I'm sure people think my stance is elitist. But I don't see any sustainable alternative. If you don't want Jackson Hole to be conquered by the ultra rich, the alternative will be sprawl and congestion. That means it takes me more time to pass through town to get to my public land.

your point is valid

the same town council member who talks out of the side of their mouth is the reason
they either own restaurants, t shirt shops, or are a realtor their whole life is based on getting people in town and selling a version/vision of the town to others
these same people rant about the environment and green this and green if they really cared they'd shut the whole circus down cause its nothing but waste
we need low wage churn and burn employees to keep the machine running in order to hit a price point and so the people at the top make as much money as they can (me)

the way the us economy is designed is that you have to have money to play
so a place like jackson or breckenridge become more and more desirable the cost of admission keeps going up

I'm buying a 47 gallon fuel tank for 3k for my van why? because I can we can all pretend to care about the world we live in but I'm just honest I don't give a fuck

[Mazderati]

Remember when altasnob said he was not going to post in the PR again.

[AdironRider]

No offense, but why do we need people like you getting rich in places like Jackson Hole. All I care about is that I can continue to pass through these towns on the way to recreate and camp on the public's land. Rich people don't care about growth or the economy of Jackson Hole because they already made their money elsewhere.

I'm sure people think my stance is elitist. But I don't see any sustainable alternative. If you don't want Jackson Hole to be conquered by the ultra rich, the alternative will be sprawl and congestion. That means it takes me more time to pass through town to get to my public land.

Hey dipshit it isn't a binary choice between rich people's ranches and sprawl, but we get it, you don't give a shit because you don't live there and don't have to deal with the issues it causes.

If I wanna get real I think it is a joke to give them the tax break. Hey let's hand them a subsidy for their nimbyism!

[jackstraw]

No offense, but why do we need people like you getting rich in places like Jackson Hole. All I care about is that I can continue to pass through these towns on the way to recreate and camp on the public's land. Rich people don't care about growth or the economy of Jackson Hole because they already made their money elsewhere.

I'm sure people think my stance is elitist. But I don't see any sustainable alternative. If you don't want Jackson Hole to be conquered by the ultra rich, the alternative will be sprawl and congestion. That means it takes me more time to pass through town to get to my public land.

Ok, but do you need to stop at the grocery store, maybe a restaurant/bar, or a shop for the piece of gear you just broke where min wage people work? Where do those people live? Or do you just venture off onto the land and survive on your own with gunz and iodine tablets?

[Danno]

Remember when altasnob said he was not going to post in the PR again.

[skaredshtles]

[fastfred]

some people exist miles above resort/ski towns or think they do

he still goes there because he doesn't now how to find places off the beaten path
seems reasonable since everyone does it

finding places (national forest public lands included) is pretty difficult for 99%

[teleee]

Remember when altasnob said he was not going to post in the PR again.

Those were the good old days. At least he is “dumbing it down” to us poor uneducated masses.


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[altasnob]

Hey dipshit it isn't a binary choice between rich people's ranches and sprawl!

Unfortunately, in places like Jackson that have a lack of developable land regardless of conservation easements, it is. Your choice is hundreds of billionaires surrounded by conservation easements. Or a million middle and lower income who demand subsidized affordable housing.

Aspen thinks they have figured it out where they have the billionaires and select few lotto winner middle/lower class. But I don't see how this can work in the long term.

[altasnob]

Ok, but do you need to stop at the grocery store, maybe a restaurant/bar, or a shop for the piece of gear you just broke where min wage people work? Where do those people live? Or do you just venture off onto the land and survive on your own with gunz and iodine tablets?

Last I checked Jackson was horribly expensive to live in and still had gas stations, grocery stores, and restaurants. Just because the people in the town are almost exclusively ultra rich doesn't mean essential commercial won't exist. The workers can drive in from the flatlands hours away, where it is much more conducive to house the masses than a mountain valley. And pristine and environmentally delicate places like Jackson will remain mostly pristine.

[Danno]

The people in Jackson are almost exclusively ultra rich?

I'm sure baby bear, rideit, djongo, and all the rest of the Jackson mags are willing to buy us a new box fan because they're all apparently ultra rich.

[altasnob]

The people in Jackson are almost exclusively ultra rich?

I'm sure baby bear, rideit, djongo, and all the rest of the Jackson mags are willing to buy us a new box fan because they're all apparently ultra rich.

They got in early. They will be rich when they sell whatever land they purchased years ago. My friends' brother moved to Driggs before any of those guys moved to Jackson. He had a college degree but worked construction. He now owns several homes there and is set for life. It's not hard to become rich when you move to a place like Jackson before anyone else and are able to buy land.

[climberevan]

If you were a billionaire, and you wanted Jackson Hole to remain as pristine as possible for the rest of time, you could donate your land to the US government to be added to the national forests. But there are a growing number of US politicians who want to start selling off federal lands. National Forests, and National Parks, do not have to remain undeveloped for the rest of time. An act of Congress could sell that land off. The US Forest Service allows development and resource extraction on national forests lands (see the ski area and hotels).

Now compare that to a conservation easement. Even if the US goes all right wing, the conservation easement is attached to the property. It can't be easily eliminated by US Congress. It is more protected in perpetuity than if you just handed your land to the US government.

A recent phenomenon, which is interesting to me, is to start gifting these conservation easements to the tribes, with no strings attached. Ballsy, because of the no strings attached, but the thought is that the tribe will manage the land with conservation and preservation in mind. They are doing this around the Methow Valley in Northern Washington, where the Nature Conservancy is giving their land away for free to the Colville Tribe.

I have to agree with most of this, actually. Plenty of our politicians would be happy to see huge mines etc on public land, including national parks. CE holders might be better stewards, since they don't need the money or care about votes.

The tribal thing is indeed a risk. Our local tribe just leased a totally undeveloped parcel that borders a stream to a sawmill, which bulldozed it and built a fully industrial mill beside residential neighborhood. Now we get to look at and hear that instead of a patch of sage and evergreens. Anyone have a problem with it? Go pound sand; this is sovereign land!

[fastfred]

Last I checked Jackson was horribly expensive to live in and still had gas stations, grocery stores, and restaurants. Just because the people in the town are almost exclusively ultra rich doesn't mean essential commercial won't exist. The workers can drive in from the flatlands hours away, where it is much more conducive to house the masses than a mountain valley. And pristine and environmentally delicate places like Jackson will remain mostly pristine.

there are people who legit believe that this is an ok and good solution
seriously they think the working class should live elsewhere and the idea that they spend 1 -2 hrs driving 60 miles each way is ok and they don't realize those people want to be compensated for that lost time

[LHutz Esq]

I have to agree with most of this, actually. Plenty of our politicians would be happy to see huge mines etc on public land, including national parks. CE holders might be better stewards, since they don't need the money or care about votes.

The tribal thing is indeed a risk. Our local tribe just leased a totally undeveloped parcel that borders a stream to a sawmill, which bulldozed it and built a fully industrial mill beside residential neighborhood. Now we get to look at and hear that instead of a patch of sage and evergreens. Anyone have a problem with it? Go pound sand; this is sovereign land!

Wasn't the land the residential neighborhood is on once "sovereign land" or has the tract housing been there since time immemorial?

[rideit]

So there would be more developable land around Jackson Hole than there is now and housing prices would at least temporarily be lowered. But don't kid yourself into thinking a place like Jackson Hole could ever have affordable housing long term. .

It won’t even do that, IMO. There will always be vastly more people willing to pay huge to live here, especially as the water wars heat up, and coastal as well as southwestern cities become too hot or fucked up to live in. This will be a global phenomenon. Teton Valley, ID is probably going to bear the brunt of this more than Jackson proper.

[Core Shot]

We have subsidized apartments here. It helps. But you can’t make much money. Kinda weird. And by much money, if you’re paid a fair wage you’re back at market rent. But at least they finally built apartment buildings.

Teton pass is bearing the brunt.
I guess they could build a tunnel. Where’s Elon musks boring machine?

But realistically for JH and other valley trapped towns, they need worker housing. Go three stories. Have to prove you’re working so many hours (locally. Not WFH. And not over a certain income).
It’s not rocket science. Let the market set the rate. But make it worker housing.

[altasnob]

seriously they think the working class should live elsewhere and the idea that they spend 1 -2 hrs driving 60 miles each way is ok and they don't realize those people want to be compensated for that lost time

They are compensated for their time. I assume it costs more to get your shitter cleaned in Breck than Denver. If the shitter cleaner thinks they are spending too much time and money driving to Breck, they will stick around in Denver where they make less, but drive less.

What's your solution? Build a bunch of subsidized housing for the shitter cleaners? So that more middle income folks can move to Breck, which will require more public housing built for more shitter cleaners? And before you know it Breck has more people in it than Aurora.