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Thread: lazy ass illegals

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Issue Guide for the Complete Idiot Who Still Thinks This Is About Race:

    1. Nobody has a problem with legal immigrants from Mexico or anywhere else.

    2. Playing the race card is a shoddy and dishonest debate technique used by people who either do not understand the issue or are too stupid to make a cogent argument (or both).

    3. People have a problem with people who broke US law to enter the country. The only reason that most of these illegal aliens are from Mexico is because we share a land border with Mexico.
    of course not, just read the posts on this thread

    Dear President Bush:
    I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

    I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

    I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

    So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

    1. Free medical care for my entire family.

    2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

    3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

    4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

    5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

    6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

    7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

    8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

    9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

    10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

    11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

    12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

    13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

    14. Eventually I want to be able to vote and have all election materials and notices sent to me in English with Spanish as a second language..

    I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico.

    I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.
    Elvis has left the building

  2. #152
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    That's what I'm talking about!

    Sprite

    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    I agree, immigration has long fueled our economy and our growth, no question about that. We need it.

    But my point, is that undocumented people can operate outside the law. legal immigration is a gurantee so to speak, that we cannot bring harm to one another without accountability. If i take a few bong hits and run over your dog, you wil lbe able to track me down and beat my ass. A person who was not born here, has a fruadulent ss card and Drivers Liscense, can pretty much play bumber cars on any freeway without consequence to himself. I have seen it happen.

    I have spent about 10 yrs of my life in Latin America, am fluent in spanish, and my step mother is chilean. Ive done wonderful things for Mexicans that have worked for me. But at the same time I have seen how a failure of our giv;t to uphold the law can bring great loss to its citizens. I am one of them.
    "I call it reveling in natures finest element. Water in its pristine form. Straight from the heavens. We bathe in it, rejoicing in the fullest." --BZ

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    I agree, immigration has long fueled our economy and our growth, no question about that. We need it.

    But my point, is that undocumented people can operate outside the law. legal immigration is a gurantee so to speak, that we cannot bring harm to one another without accountability. If i take a few bong hits and run over your dog, you wil lbe able to track me down and beat my ass. A person who was not born here, has a fruadulent ss card and Drivers Liscense, can pretty much play bumber cars on any freeway without consequence to himself. I have seen it happen.

    I have spent about 10 yrs of my life in Latin America, am fluent in spanish, and my step mother is chilean. Ive done wonderful things for Mexicans that have worked for me. But at the same time I have seen how a failure of our giv;t to uphold the law can bring great loss to its citizens. I am one of them.
    I'm glad you are familiar with the territory. Given that familiarity, it's simply incomprehensible to me that you'd rather "enforce the laws on the books" than effect a fundamental reform of this broken system in order to address the very problems you've identified. A simple reading of the existing laws would imply that we should deport the 12 million illegals in this country. Surely you don't think that's the answer, do you?

    The people who get the most press on this issue see the problem as being illegal immigration. That's just a symptom of the disarity in wages and incomes between the US and Mexico. Illegal immigration will continue as long as that disparity exists, no matter how high you build a fence, or how many troops are stationed on the border. The real problem is that the illegals are incentivized to remain in the shadow economy and avoid any potential interaction with govt (drivers licenses, insurance, etc...) b/c of the way the curent system is set up. That's why you have people falling through the cracks and leaving in this undocumentable shadow world.

    Fix the system, and you fix the problem.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    Fix the system, and you fix the problem.
    But how?


    Sprite
    "I call it reveling in natures finest element. Water in its pristine form. Straight from the heavens. We bathe in it, rejoicing in the fullest." --BZ

  5. #155
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    cj001f - Surely you can make a solid generalization that everyone who wants to stop illegal border crossing is just a stupid racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowsprite
    Maybe you wouldn't have USA stickers on your stuff if you lived in the countries listed above, but I'm sure people wouldn't get all freaky on you if you did. Maybe they'd think it was a bit tacky, but I doubt they'd feel all defensive and all.

    Maybe I'm naive? But that's my feeling...

    Sprite
    Very Niave... displaying the American flag while traveling is a good way to catch a lot of shit (even before or current administration).

    LIVING in another country and flying the colors high is a good way to get yourself in trouble most places (unless you live on a military installation).
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowsprite
    But how?


    Sprite
    The sad thing is that your question is EXACTLY what this debate should be about. Unfortunately, it has morphed into "send them home" vs. everything else. I don't claim to have all the answers, but two things should be clear to every sentient individual in this country:

    1) The system is broken and needs to be fixed

    2) Sending 12 million people home, as the law would have it, is impractical, inhumane, and economic suicide for the US.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    Issue Guide for the Complete Idiot Who Still Thinks This Is About Race:

    1. Nobody has a problem with legal immigrants from Mexico or anywhere else.

    2. Playing the race card is a shoddy and dishonest debate technique used by people who either do not understand the issue or are too stupid to make a cogent argument (or both).

    3. People have a problem with people who broke US law to enter the country. The only reason that most of these illegal aliens are from Mexico is because we share a land border with Mexico.
    Really? If this country was being swamped by illegal immigrants from England, Ireland, and Australia, do you honestly believe there would be as much of an outcry as there is now? Talk about being intellectually shoddy and dishonest.

  8. #158
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    "AMNISTIA AMNISTIA AMNISTIA NOBODY IS ILLEGAL!"

    Let's make citizens of our country out of people whose first action showed they have no respect for the laws of the land.

    In the 80s people questioned the Reagan amnesty. "If we show that we will eventually reward citizenship to those who skip the proper channels and break the law... what kind of message does that send? COME ON OVER!!!!!!"

    And surprise surprise susrprise the illegal alien problem bloomed exponentially.

    I guarantee you there was a disparity between Mexico and the USA and a demand for cheap labor LONG before the 80s

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    Fix the system, and you fix the problem.
    You claim the disparity between Mexico & US is the problem.

    How do you propose that we fix Mexico short of simply allowing unchecked immigration until everything balances?

    And why do those fleeing Mexico because it "sucks" then fly Mexican flags and chant "MEXICO!"???

    If Mexico has a problem, try to fix it.... Maybe that is why Mexico is restrictive of personal firearm ownership... there might be a REVOLUTION by its populace trying to fix their broken system! I have to say I was optomistic when Fox defeated PRI but he has shown himself to be more of the corrupt status quo.
    Last edited by Summit; 05-02-2006 at 10:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  9. #159
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    I would like to see a "10 best" proposals for fixing the problem. I am not being facetious...I'm really ignorant as far as following what is being said and proposed. Has anyone started actually talking about possible solutions? Is anyone actually making any sense?

    I'm all ears!

    Sprite
    "I call it reveling in natures finest element. Water in its pristine form. Straight from the heavens. We bathe in it, rejoicing in the fullest." --BZ

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowsprite
    Has anyone started actually talking about possible solutions? Is anyone actually making any sense?
    No because this faux debate is about distracting people from other more pressing issues.
    Elvis has left the building

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by cj001f
    No because this faux debate is about distracting people from other more pressing issues.
    We have a bingo.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    I'm glad you are familiar with the territory. Given that familiarity, it's simply incomprehensible to me that you'd rather "enforce the laws on the books" than effect a fundamental reform of this broken system in order to address the very problems you've identified. A simple reading of the existing laws would imply that we should deport the 12 million illegals in this country. Surely you don't think that's the answer, do you?

    The people who get the most press on this issue see the problem as being illegal immigration. That's just a symptom of the disarity in wages and incomes between the US and Mexico. Illegal immigration will continue as long as that disparity exists, no matter how high you build a fence, or how many troops are stationed on the border. The real problem is that the illegals are incentivized to remain in the shadow economy and avoid any potential interaction with govt (drivers licenses, insurance, etc...) b/c of the way the curent system is set up. That's why you have people falling through the cracks and leaving in this undocumentable shadow world.

    Fix the system, and you fix the problem.
    Your right again, reagans Immigration reform whatever is what forced these poeple into this shadow economy. You say fix the system? That means jailing people who are commiting identity theft/ fraud by using other people's ss numbers or even fabricating one. Entering illegally was only their first offense. So we fix the system, and the ss agency starts sharing the some of the 200 million fraudulent ss numbers with the Dept. of Homeland security. I m all for it.

    I understand we cannot deport all these people, nor would I reccomend doing so, but it is a huge mess we have to clean up, and would expect that some people might have to go back and do it legally. If we can fix the system, we should start by documenting these people.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    Really? If this country was being swamped by illegal immigrants from England, Ireland, and Australia, do you honestly believe there would be as much of an outcry as there is now? Talk about being intellectually shoddy and dishonest.
    we started enforcing qoutas on immigration from these countries a long time ago. is that fair? Or do we just prefer the mexicans because they take out the trash? Why do we discriminate? Or are we more or less just offering preferential treatment to those who enter from mexico and will pick lettuce? Is that the debate?

    getting people to come here is not the problem. why do the mexicans get a 12 million person exemption when we restrict people from other parts of the world from commng here?
    Last edited by Cono Este; 05-02-2006 at 10:50 AM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit
    "AMNISTIA AMNISTIA AMNISTIA NOBODY IS ILLEGAL!"

    Let's make citizens of our country out of people whose first action showed they have no respect for the laws of the land.

    In the 80s people questioned the Reagan amnesty. "If we show that we will eventually reward citizenship to those who skip the proper channels and break the law... what kind of message does that send? COME ON OVER!!!!!!"

    And surprise surprise susrprise the illegal alien problem bloomed exponentially.
    Really? You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that the Mexican economy was horribly mis-managed and was essentially bankrupt for much of the 80s? Or that recent immigrants have networks of friends and family members to ease their journey that simply didn't exist for their predecessors in the 60s and 70s? No, must have been that amnesty.


    You claim the disparity between Mexico & US is the problem.

    How do you propose that we fix Mexico short of simply allowing unchecked immigration until everything balances?

    And why do those fleeing Mexico because it "sucks" then fly Mexican flags and chant "MEXICO!"???

    If Mexico has a problem, try to fix it.... Maybe that is why Mexico is restrictive of personal firearm ownership... there might be a REVOLUTION by its populace trying to fix their broken system! I have to say I was optomistic when Fox defeated PRI but he has shown himself to be more of the corrupt status quo.
    Mexico doesn't have a problem. The problem is economics and the incentives therein. This is then compounded by idiotic policy on our side of the border.

    I don't propose amnesty or anything of the like. But surely there is a way to bring law-abiding individuals into the civil society while satisfying concerns about them jumping the immigration line etc.... If someone comes over here and works hard for 5-10 years, pays taxes, and keeps his/her nose clean, why shouldn't there be some sort of halfway house short of citizenship, providing they use the proper channels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    If this country was being swamped by illegal immigrants from England, Ireland, and Australia, do you honestly believe there would be as much of an outcry as there is now?
    All things (other than ethnicity) being equal, yes, I believe there would be an outcry. It wouldn't be as great, but that's a class issue.
    Your dog just ate an avocado!

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    Your right again, reagans Immigration reform whatever is what forced these poeple into this shadow economy.
    Assuming this was sarcasm, you're quite clearly wrong. Why would Reagan have granted an amnesty if these people already weren't in the shadow economy? The system was broken long before Reagan.

    You say fix the system? That means jailing people who are commiting identity theft/ fraud by using other people's ss numbers or even fabricating one.
    I'm all for jailing people who commit these crimes. Never said otherwise. That said, I hope you're not implying that a large % of illegals are engaged in this type of fraud. Ther'es simply no evidence to back that up. It's just as likely that (legal) Russian mobsters or the Sopranos are dominating that business.

    Entering illegally was only their first offense. So we fix the system, and the ss agency starts sharing the some of the 200 million fraudulent ss numbers with the Dept. of Homeland security. I m all for it.
    I commend you on your simultaneous use of both the slippery slope argument and the strawman. You've not only argued against a solution I wasn't suggesting, but the very nature of that "solution" is ridiculous in the first place. Well done.

    I understand we cannot deport all these people, nor would I reccomend doing so, but it is a huge mess we have to clean up, and would expect that some people might have to go back and do it legally. If we can fix the system, we should start by documenting these people.
    This is the first rational suggestion you've made. Since we can't deport them and really wouldn't want to given the damage it would to do our economy, we have to fix the system and find a solution. A first step would be to document them. No question. But you can't entice them to be documented until and unless there is a viable and superior alternative to remaining in the shadow economy, perpetually on the run from the INS.

  17. #167
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    Tin, I respect you and all, but how do you think Illegals survive in this country? They all use fraudulent ID or at least the vast majority do. I was referring to reagans initiative that employer"s use certain documentation before hiring people. That forced these people to break more laws just to survive here.

    I can tell you from many years of experience in latin America things are different. I wont say they do not repect our system, since most of these people are comming from countries that have far less sophisticated tax collection, or dcumenattion requirements than we do. hell most of the people in question were probably not very well documented in the countries they came from. But thats why we have a process, to teach them that they need these things. That the IRS wants to be paid in a timely manner. I understand that 99% of these people are simply hard working people and at this point should have a chance to stay.

    I agree with most of what you say. I just find it important to point out the illegal alein debate is a prime example of how our gov't is not enforcing certain laws. And that we dont have to have an illegal run through our backyard bbq to be adversly affected by it.

    i will post this for the tenth time. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html
    Last edited by Cono Este; 05-02-2006 at 11:19 AM.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    Tin, I respect you and all, but how do you think Illegals survive in this country? They all use fraudulent ID or at least the vast majority do. I was referring to reagans initiative that employer"s use certain documentation before hiring people. That forced these people to break more laws just to survive here.
    This is exactly my point. They use fraudulent ID b/c they have to - there's no other option short of applying for a visa that will never come or remaining in their native countries in a state of penury and hopelessness. Why should they not have the option of some sort of official ID that gives them a limited set of priveleges with certain mandatory hoops to jump through prior to citizenship? Then you use the hammer of cracking down on companies that refuse to abide by this system by hiring completely undocumented illegals.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    I will post this for the tenth time. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html
    The real crime w/r/t Social Security isn't that ESF fund. Rather it's that this "fund" doesn't really exist as we know funds to exist. Along with every other cent of surplus generated by SS taxes, it is being plowed into current spending to offset the current deficits.

    We are currently bankrupting our childrens' generation, and yet we're here arguing about whether we should deport 12 million people. The common theme is that we gloss over the real problems all the while shouting back and forth about easily digestable, yet perfectly illogical and irrelevant, so-called "solutions" to the problems in question.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    This is exactly my point. They use fraudulent ID b/c they have to - there's no other option short of applying for a visa that will never come or remaining in their native countries in a state of penury and hopelessness. Why should they not have the option of some sort of official ID that gives them a limited set of priveleges with certain mandatory hoops to jump through prior to citizenship? Then you use the hammer of cracking down on companies that refuse to abide by this system by hiring completely undocumented illegals.

    Its called a green card, they should have filled out the form. And as much i try to symphatize with these people, they certainly know what breaking a law is.

    And if we are to extend our hands to every person in a state of "penury and hopelessness" then I think we will need a fleet of liberty ships to haul everyone from Africa and Asia here too. Its just not practical and i do not think that is what you are advising. What to do with the 12 million already here? I think we agree on that.

    im off to a movie.

  21. #171
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    well, I'm glad to see that all the "illegals" made it out yesterday. it sounds like some of them actually value the work they have because less than 1 million of the 11 million plus showed up to ANSWER's parade.

    in fact in LA more people showed up for the Laker's Three-peat(hat tip Pat Riley) than showed up for the walk out yesterday. I'd call it a pathetic showing, but it was actually smart that these people didn't listen to the organizers, whomever they may be.

    To the people that did show up to the protest, I hope you showed up to a pink slip this morning.
    "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    The real crime w/r/t Social Security isn't that ESF fund. Rather it's that this "fund" doesn't really exist as we know funds to exist. Along with every other cent of surplus generated by SS taxes, it is being plowed into current spending to offset the current deficits.

    We are currently bankrupting our childrens' generation, and yet we're here arguing about whether we should deport 12 million people. The common theme is that we gloss over the real problems all the while shouting back and forth about easily digestable, yet perfectly illogical and irrelevant, so-called "solutions" to the problems in question.
    Yep, that is why all these threads are a wast of time. Nothing will come of it. The gov't is screwing us all. but this "loophole" presents enormous problems to some americans. Our ss numbers are basically like our DNA in this country. And allowing this fraud to take place at the expense of everyday law abiding Americans is a crime. And unfortunately for me, this is the real problem I have with the illegal alien debate in our country, i guess i use it for selfish reasons. But it is never the less a practice among the illegal community that must stop. We must at least Document them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    Its called a green card, they should have filled out the form. And as much i try to symphatize with these people, they certainly know what breaking a law is.

    And if we are to extend our hands to every person in a state of "penury and hopelessness" then I think we will need a fleet of liberty ships to haul everyone from Africa and Asia here too. Its just not practical and i do not think that is what you are advising. What to do with the 12 million already here? I think we agree on that.

    im off to a movie.
    Obviously the green card isn't the answer, or else the illegals would be applying for them in droves. I'm thinking of something with a much lower barrier to acquire, carrying with it fewer priveleges, but with a clear road map to a green card or some other form of normalcy. You then combine that "carrot" with the "stick" of jailing employers who don't hire properly documented illegals. Given the widespread availability of the Internet, it would seem to be quite feasible to set up a database (including photos) of these card holders in order to quickly determine if they are valid or not. Therefore, minimal cost to the employer to check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este
    Yep, that is why all these threads are a wast of time. Nothing will come of it. The gov't is screwing us all. but this "loophole" presents enormous problems to some americans. Our ss numbers are basically like our DNA in this country. And allowing this fraud to take place at the expense of everyday law abiding Americans is a crime. And unfortunately for me, this is the real problem I have with the illegal alien debate in our country, i guess i use it for selfish reasons. But it is never the less a practice among the illegal community that must stop. We must at least Document them.
    I agree with that. Which is why the solution is to fix the system that encourages them to remain undocumented. Advocating the notion that we can either send them home or stop them from coming is like getting mad at your professor in school b/c you got a lousy grade after not studying. Instead of getting mad at the prof, how about putting the work in to study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    You then combine that "carrot" with the "stick" of jailing employers who don't hire properly documented illegals.
    I agree with the concept...but think about how this action will impact the illegals who are coming here to escape a hopeless situation, not to mention the "legals" who are employed by these same companies.

    I'm not advocating that companies who practice this are let off the hook, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here and showing you that to punish them is also to punish those who are most vulnerable.

    No easy fix here! It is very fucked.

    Sprite
    "I call it reveling in natures finest element. Water in its pristine form. Straight from the heavens. We bathe in it, rejoicing in the fullest." --BZ

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