RECCO

[Squatch]

according to the website http://www.recco.com/system/reflectors_info.asp

The two-part technology operates on the frequency-doubling principle. The RECCO reflector bounces back the directional radar signal to the searcher and doubles the frequency, allowing the operator of the RECCO detector to actually hear where the burial is located. This enables rapid pinpointing of the signal and tracks searchers on a direct path to the burial. The reflectors are most effective when worn on a helmet or in pairs–pant and jacket or left and right boot–due to the unpredictable orientation of avalanche burials.

and from http://www.recco.com/system/detectors_info.asp

The RECCO detector is directional, which means the audio signal increases when pointed directly at the reflector. This major operational benefit eliminates the need to follow a flux line into the burial. After the initial signal is received, the RECCO detector leads the operator in a direct line to the victim, increasing precision and saving precious search time. This directional characteristic also allows for an exact location of the burial in the fine search stage, significantly reducing the amount of probing required for a successful find.

So yeah, if the website is correct, they are faster.

[summit]

um yes... faster pinpiont
surely some of the patrollers on this board have practiced with a recco transciever as well?

[fattwins]

untill they get the size down though it really is a body finder. At big mountain the recco kits have to be in the right spot at the right time. I still think the system is good and will get better but it needs to be small enough so that a patroller can carry it on them at all times.

[mtbakerskier]

untill they get the size down though it really is a body finder. At big mountain the recco kits have to be in the right spot at the right time. I still think the system is good and will get better but it needs to be small enough so that a patroller can carry it on them at all times.

If I rember correctly there was a successfull, live rescue with the RECCO unit this year. I agree that the more compact and easy to transport the system becomes the better it will be, but it is idiotic and irresponcilbe for any mtn with lots of avy prone terrain to not have units stationed at key areas for a rapid deployment at any incident within the resort.

[cj001f]

So yeah, if the website is correct, they are faster.

For a practiced patroller search time is pretty optimized already. Patrollers have beacons on them. Recco is at some other location on the hill. A beacon will be on the scene faster; search times for patrollers with a good beacon are in the 1-2 minute range. digging is what will take time...

[summit]

untill they get the size down though it really is a body finder. At big mountain the recco kits have to be in the right spot at the right time. I still think the system is good and will get better but it needs to be small enough so that a patroller can carry it on them at all times.

RECCO transceiver units are too expensive to give each hill 6 or 12 to preposition or predeploy.

[Tippster]

Maybe a rebate or lower rate in Liability insurance could offset the cost of the units....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA....................

[mtbakerskier]

For a practiced patroller search time is pretty optimized already. Patrollers have beacons on them. Recco is at some other location on the hill. A beacon will be on the scene faster; search times for patrollers with a good beacon are in the 1-2 minute range. digging is what will take time...

You are forgetting ONE MAJOR PROBLEM, 99.99 % of all INBOUNDS skiers DO NOT WEAR BEACONS! That is why the RECCO system is so good it is a safety net for something like what happened at Mammoth where you would not expect anyone caught in the slide to be wearing a beacon.

So arguing that it takes longer to deploy and that patrolers dont have one is kind of moot. Atl east in its current form it gives rescuers at least some hope of finding a person caught in a in bounds slide. Where tranceviers are going to be useless (If the victims dont have one on, what good is searching with one going to do).

[cj001f]

You are forgetting ONE MAJOR PROBLEM, 99.99 % of all INBOUNDS skiers DO NOT WEAR BEACONS! That is why the RECCO system is so good it is a safety net for something like what happened at Mammoth where you would not expect anyone caught in the slide to be wearing a beacon.

So arguing that it takes longer to deploy and that patrolers dont have one is kind of moot. Atl east in its current form it gives rescuers at least some hope of finding a person caught in a in bounds slide. Where tranceviers are going to be useless (If the victims dont have one on, what good is searching with one going to do).

er, no, pointing out that a transceiver is still superior to Recco if you are wearing one. I wrote this several months ago:

"No, it’s not as applicable to North American backcountry skiing as using your brain or avalanche beacons, but it could well be invaluable for the kind of frontcountry avalanches that struck Utah last year. People have been rescued alive from avalanches because of Recco location, and perhaps a few of the Utah victims might have been. Even if the response wasn’t quick enough to save the victim, reducing the body search time from days to hours would do great things for SAR budgets already feeling pressure from the politicians knives. At a cost of a few dollars and few grams, why shouldn’t more ski jackets and boots carry them? Most major North American ski resorts and a number of search and rescue teams already have the required detector, all that’s missing is the clothing and equipment companies supplying the reflector."

substitute ski are for frontcountry and patrol for SAR, same difference I'm in agreeance with you, oh great one.

[summit]

mtbakerskier is right on

reflectors are cheap. transceivers are expensive. recco gives some away to patrols/SAR teams cheap to gain product acceptance and convince manufacturers to include reflectors.

The pinpoint speed is a trivial point in the big picture:
Most inbounds slides are going to be probe lines because 99.9% of people do not wear beacons. Most of us that have beacons do not wear them in bounds. I know many of you who laugh at those of us who do wear beacons inbounds.

RECCO is infinately faster than a probe line.

[sar13]

Teton County SAR got a Recco Receiver this year after we spent three days probing for a dead snowmobiler. It might not have found this guy but since they can find anything with a diode it is a great option for finding victims who aren't wearing transceivers. The sales rep told us the range when finding a cell phone or camera is roughly half of the range when finding their chip and our practice sessions seemed to agree with this.

A few points to keep in mind. The range and pinpoint searching are both great, however, the signal can be blocked by the victim's body. If you have a chip, it should be somewhere that you aren't likely to end up on top of; like your helmet or your boots. Two chips are better than one since you're more likely to have one facing up. I wouldn't put it on your transceiver since that is usually on your chest and could easily be blocked if you ended up on your stomach.

The receivers aren't THAT big and the first patroler leaving the patrol hut could easily grap it, so it could potentially arrive in time for a live inbounds/front country recovery.

Another cool thing is that the range is enough that we could potentially serach from a helipcopter. This would help in a situation where we receive a report of a slide but no one knows if anyone is buried.

Recco does not in any way replace a transceiver, however, I think we will see more live recoveries with this technology in the near future and it is a great idea to put pressure on clothing and equipment manufacturers to include chips in their products.

[Buzzworthy]

How about if you forget to turn it on or forget to put new batteries in???? That stuff happens more often than most of us would like to think, so the RECCO system is still wroth having as a pasive back up.

I certainly agree this is a good back up system. Checking the site of who has this system in place (most places I ride), and since I snowboard mostly and send more snow down normally than a skier, I will probably look into getting this, as I need a new jacket anyway.



I have been wearing my beacon inbounds this year. Not like my home mountain is likely to slide, but I was getting used to it. Most people did not know I had it on.


But I will say that I am super aware of my beacon and how I take care of it, cause it needs to take care of me (hopefully never).

"Put on, turn on, take off, turn off", have extra batteries in ski bag and BC pack.

[Treepinner]

One bad thing about the Recco -- I've seen people in lift lines who put the wafers on their skis.

That's why they stopped selling the stick-on reflectors. Now you can only buy products (clothing mostly) with them attached. Some stores may still have old stock of stickers for a while though.

[fattwins]

The problem with the size means that you loose time on the search. As alot of you here, are pretty back country savy you know that time counts in a search. That said would a probe line be faster i dont think so. Finding one person in what 4 or 5 years of the system being out isnt a great number. The system will at some point come down in size so im looking forward to that day.

My friend lost her camera on a BC tour then found the camera with recco the next day. It was easy for her to find and use the system.

[nesta]

Teton County SAR got a Recco Receiver this year after we spent three days probing for a dead snowmobiler. It might not have found this guy but since they can find anything with a diode it is a great option for finding victims who aren't wearing transceivers. The sales rep told us the range when finding a cell phone or camera is roughly half of the range when finding their chip and our practice sessions seemed to agree with this.

A few points to keep in mind. The range and pinpoint searching are both great, however, the signal can be blocked by the victim's body. If you have a chip, it should be somewhere that you aren't likely to end up on top of; like your helmet or your boots. Two chips are better than one since you're more likely to have one facing up. I wouldn't put it on your transceiver since that is usually on your chest and could easily be blocked if you ended up on your stomach.

The receivers aren't THAT big and the first patroler leaving the patrol hut could easily grap it, so it could potentially arrive in time for a live inbounds/front country recovery.

Another cool thing is that the range is enough that we could potentially serach from a helipcopter. This would help in a situation where we receive a report of a slide but no one knows if anyone is buried.

Recco does not in any way replace a transceiver, however, I think we will see more live recoveries with this technology in the near future and it is a great idea to put pressure on clothing and equipment manufacturers to include chips in their products.

This is the best post in this thread so far. I also like the idea of Recco reflectors put on every season's pass at areas that have the receivers.
Summit, your point that 99.9% of in bounds slide victims not wearing beacons may be correct, but them being found by probe-line is bullshit. Dogs are way faster than probelines, and any area with avalanche terrain that doesn't have at least one dog team should be shamed into it!
It is totally true that you should have 2 reflectors on either side of your body as the body has such a high water content it could hamper the reception of the signal if the 1 reflector happened to be on the ground side of the burial victim.
What do you guys figure about the explosives manufacturers now putting reflectors into avalauncher boosters to aid misfire searches? I can see these duds being swept down the mountain in subsequent avalanches if not found immediately, and then potentially being located in areas where there might be an avalanche involvement. Wouldn't that be weird- to have a definite signal from a reflector while searching for buried victim(s) and then not being able to probe a body... and if you had a really lucky strike...?

[mtbakerskier]

What do you guys figure about the explosives manufacturers now putting reflectors into avalauncher boosters to aid misfire searches? I can see these duds being swept down the mountain in subsequent avalanches if not found immediately, and then potentially being located in areas where there might be an avalanche involvement. Wouldn't that be weird- to have a definite signal from a reflector while searching for buried victim(s) and then not being able to probe a body... and if you had a really lucky strike...?

I beleave that this practice is no longer happening. However it if it was it would only be on unexploded charges wich should technically beremoved ASAP as they are a hude hazzard to leave on thehill for any period of time.

[nesta]

I beleave that this practice is no longer happening. However it if it was it would only be on unexploded charges wich should technically beremoved ASAP as they are a hude hazzard to leave on thehill for any period of time.

ummmm, wrong wrong and wrong again. Yes they are a hazard to leave on the hill for any length of time, but if you want to come up to Fernie and look for duds in winter in the upper start zones, well you come be our guest. We'll tell you where they are approximately and I bet you won't find a one! Actually you might with the Recco, but don't get too bogged down with your work or you might fall off.........that cliff!

[grskier]

(most people dont ski ride with there camera out, there almost always in a jacket pack etc), wich will only improve the chance that they will be found.

You haven't seen Texas on spring break have you?

[summit]

Summit, your point that 99.9% of in bounds slide victims not wearing beacons may be correct, but them being found by probe-line is bullshit. Dogs are way faster than probelines, and any area with avalanche terrain that doesn't have at least one dog team should be shamed into it!

Read the post THEN respond THEN smoke crack:
At no point did I say all inbounds victims were found by probe!

I've never participated in an in area search. In BC searches buried victims I've seen found either by spot probing or dogs.

Well trained SAR dogs with competent handlers are the most amazing search tool I've ever seen. Dogs rule. I am in a rarer area where dogs and handlers are generally plentiful AND there is a system in place to rapidly deploy these resources. In many areas there may be only a few, or one, or no dog teams or they may not always be available.

Dogs are not infallible and depending on the size/depth/type of the avalanche and amount of human activity in the debris field their abilities may be decreased. One way dogs are used when other detection methods, including usual scenting, have failed may be to have a probe line pass through then have the dog scent the area (probe holes liberating trapped scents).

My statements dealt specifically with RECCO v Probe.

My statement that RECCO beats probe lines for speed stands. It beats spot probing for POD, probably beats coarse lines POD given that most travelers have *some* diode on them, it probably comes close to the POD of a fine probe for POD. The difference is that only a spot probe and RECCO have a real chance of a live find. Probe lines do not. Probe lines are exhausting and demoralizing. Probe lines are generally a detection tool for recovery only. Where is that graph of rescue/recovery percentages by search technique? (Note: I am NOT saying that probing is unimportant.)

RECCO has already moved in its level of adoption from the "final sweep after the probe" to "get that tool onsite ASAP."

As to the RECCO success record one has to consider level of implementation of reflectors detectors and level of use in searches. We all should know that RECCO is for organized rescue and that companion rescue is the best chance for survival.

As the transceiver is the greatest technological advance in companion avalanche rescue, I think RECCO will quickly become the greatest technological advance in searching we've seen for organized avalanche rescue.

Here is an older thread with a lot of RECCO discussion including technical capabilities and ranges:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=recco

[alto]

I am unfamiliar with the RECCO system. So how does it work with multiple burials? For example, if there are 15 SAR people at the scene, with 12 of them wearing reflectors, 1 partial burial who is wearing a reflector, and two complete burials who are also wearing reflectors, what happens then?

[cj001f]

any area with avalanche terrain that doesn't have at least one dog team should be shamed into it!

Like, say Mammoth mountain, where the patroller paid for the dog out of his own pocket and people buy t-shirts to support patrol? A $365 million dollar mountain, people have to buy fucking t-shirts to support the safety patrol.

[SimonInAustralia]

I was quizzing a ski patroller at Jackson about it, he didn't think it was worth using if you are serious about it, he mentioned the same issues already discussed, size and location of detector, false reading from diodes, etc. Guess it would be good for inbounds non-tranceiver wearers as mentioned though.

I always wear my tranceiver inbounds when I'm riding overseas (no point here in Australia, we don't have avvys), you hear about enough inbounds slides to cause concern.

[mtbakerskier]

I was quizzing a ski patroller at Jackson about it, he didn't think it was worth using if you are serious about it, he mentioned the same issues already discussed, size and location of detector, false reading from diodes, etc. Guess it would be good for inbounds non-tranceiver wearers as mentioned though.

I always wear my tranceiver inbounds when I'm riding overseas (no point here in Australia, we don't have avvys), you hear about enough inbounds slides to cause concern.

To me that sounds like poor training and education on the part of the JH ski patrol. Anyone that has bee nproperly trained in the sytstem would tell you the opposite of the above.

ALSO on the subject of Jackson, that is one resort, that if I had to bet will be relying on the recco in the sooner than later future, since there BC policy allows any gapper with out gear or knowldege to enter the BC.

[Gebster]

Like, say Mammoth mountain, where the patroller paid for the dog out of his own pocket and people buy t-shirts to support patrol? A $365 million dollar mountain, people have to buy fucking t-shirts to support the safety patrol.

Only 1 avy dog, King, for such a big mountain...WTF Time to shame Rusty

[mtbakerskier]

Only 1 avy dog, King, for such a big mountain...WTF Time to shame Rusty

It is FUCKED that are goverment does not fund AVY classes, awareness or avy centers effectively. The entire avy problem in our country could be greatly reduced if we spent a few more dollars on it and a few less on keeping Bush, er fuck face in office.