Theres a gun being pointed at my head, where are you guys?!

[edg]

Wait, you *actually* think he's 16? I thought you were just failing to be funny ???

edg

[MeatPuppet]

I would not bother with martial arts though. Unless you are the real deal, you will just become over confident and het pummled more often. PLus these days, people will just stab you or shoot you.

Yeah, That's why I made the distinction between a self-defence course and a martial arts class.

A good self defence course will teach you about awareness and avoidence of dangerous situations, how to deal with different situations should they arise. Most of them will also give you a few techniques that can be used if it does get physical, but the bulk of the course will(should) be spent on avoiding those situations to begin with.

The state of martial arts in America is so pathetic(as a whole) I couldn't recommend any martial arts without going to the school and checking it out first. On the other hand, if someone wanted to learn to defend themselves, I would recommend finding a good boxing gym. The average boxer will destroy the average "black belt". It has to do with training methodologies.

[Free Range Lobster]

Not at all. I'm having a resoned discussion based upon my experience. I'm pretty sure you should leave the conversation to the adults who have experienced the real world

Otherwise, you can continue to argue based upon what your mommy/TV/highschool teacher told you to believe...

As long as you go back and watch a few more Die Hard movies.
I bet Steve Seagal is your hero.

Lets dissect the actual incident as told so even Summit can understand it.

I was outside with a couple friends when some people drove by calling us pussys, bitches, and whatever else they deemed stupid enough to say. None of us really said anything except one of my friends who yelled back in Dave Chapel sort of way.

First mistake, they were obviously looking for a fight, your friend fell for the game.

About an hour later that evening I was eating at Moca Salsa and I noticed the same car in the parking lot (looking out the window). etc. etc. etc.

Did you do the right thing by staying in the restaraunt and letting them think they're tough?
yes.
If they did infact have guns and you tried to confront them with a gun or any sort of training would that have been good?
no.

One of the golden rules for home defense is to lock yourself, and your family in a room with a phone. Does this apply to other situations, like this? Yes.

All in all, a pretty interesting evening. It is likely the kids were probably just some dumb bastards with an unloaded or pellet gun like weapon, and had no intention of shooting anyone, just being stupid.

The feel like cool guys, there was no actual confrontation, everyone is ok. Thats what matters.

I did have a serious problem with the amount of time it took the police to arrive though. When I tell the 911 dispatcher that a gun has been pointed at me several times in the past couple minuets, does that not warrant a quicker response? And I honestly don't want to hear about how they were busy or some shit like that, because for an hour after I drove up and down 3300 S trying to locate the vehicle, and saw tons, and tons of police cars. The area is very well patrolled, especially on a Saturday night. How does everyone think I should approach this? I want to call and leave a comment, but I don't wanna be bitchy about it. I am just concerned that the system took that long to get to me. I am sure it can happen with everyone else too...

Since they are town/state employees, yes you have the right to call and bitch about the response time, could it have been the dispachers fault? Possibly. Lazy cops on an undercover coffee break? It happens.
Would going to the media help you? No, not especially, and putting your name it on is a free ticket to getting harassed by the police.
And the tons of police you saw after the incident were possibly looking for them too. Its not exactly something they take lightly, and I kind of wonder if you weren't the first that night to have called in about it, which would technically explain the response time etc to a degree.

[Cono Este]

As long as you go back and watch a few more Die Hard movies.
I bet Steve Seagal is your hero.

Im just surprised you cannot find a way to blame Bush for the 12 miunte response. Still time left though...

[Free Range Lobster]

Im just surprised you cannot find a way to blame Bush for the 12 miunte response. Still time left though...

Cutting state funding to blow more money on the war?
Works for me.

[Cono Este]

You can break it down to two diff. scenarios.

1. Someone with something to lose. I just give them my lawyers business card. It works everytime.

2. Someone who has nothing to lose. Avoid confrontation at all costs. Personally I keep a canister of military grade cs tear gas in my car for them. And my running shoes.

[summit]

likwid, I seem to agree with a lot of what you said to bryanthebold regarding the incident. However, you still seem to think that I'm advocating blasting away at anyone who appears threatening... you clearly are so convinced that you didn't bother to read any of my posts. I was advocating changes for the future
You would further be able to discern my thoughs based on the order of action I mentioned:

look at the order in which I presented :

defuse/deter/retreat/delay/defend

From what I can tell from what bryanthebold said, he executed defuse/deter and his next step was retreat/delay

What I was addressing was that he was mistakenly seemed to rely on the police for that final resort, defense, and he could come up with an alternative solution for the future.

Then guns were brought up by LAN as a solution so I expanded some details on that as an option. That apparently caused you to bristle... I suspect because you are one of the "guns are evil" types (this assumption based on your reactions here and in the myriad of other NSR political threads you love to post in).

I'm not sure what you think of as acceptable defense if one runs out of options, but it sure sounds like you don't understand that:

The police aren't your personal body guards. You have to know how to take care of yourself.

[bryanthebold]

Alright, lets recap.

My plan in head, and the plan I initiated was to prevent any attackers from entering the building and prevent harm from gun shot by taking shelter in the backroom. If the intruder can be kept out of the building, I can help insure the personal safety of myself, and the other customers in the building. The police were used simply because the situation was too large for me to control on my own. If I were on my own I could have easily escaped into a safer location and been fine, but I was in a building with 3 other friends, who I knew I was responsible for, as well as people who were also eating in the restaurant (not personal responsibility). I could not devise a plan to either distract, or rid the antagonist without putting my own life in danger. I could have hypothetically tried to exit the building into another vehicle (several), or maybe to another house...but any of those ideas would take everyone into harms way. The police were called because the restaurant was being harassed. The employees didn't appreciate it, nor did anyone else. There could have been several problems that the police may have been needed. Asking for the police's help to control a situation from the outside, when I have very little control from the inside. I guess you could say then I must get outside, but I am still getting my self screwed by leaving everyone else behind. If it even came down to it, by the size of the gun, it would be difficult to maneuver in close quarters, and a couple of us could have created a defense if it had to come to that. The safety of us could have been prolonged quite some time, depending on how they assaulted the building, so with a 12 minute response time, we still were fine.

And when it came to calling the cops, I was thinking about some of the things I learned in my EMT class. If the scene is not safe, then let the cops come and secure the scene. It's their job to control scenes. I would without a doubt think that what was happening that night at Moca Salsa was in their interest.

When I think about the suspects, I don't really believe any of them would have shot anyone. I could have gone out, probably drawn one away from their vehicles, and maybe even defused the situation. Its all possible, but so much else is possible, and sometimes when I am dealing with people, I think of them more as statistics than people. Whats the likelihood of me being shot unintentionally? How likely is it that I get the trashed beat out of me, by giving up my own safety, for not even the safety of others. My intentions were to prolong the safety of everyone, including my self, till professionals could deal with the problem.

And I totally understand the tough guy stupid shit. I never said a damned word to them, and the only thing said was by a friend of mine who was only with me earlier in the evening, not at Moca Salsa.

I am also aware of the possibility of failure on many parts, including the dispatcher, the cop, everyone involved. Regardless, that portion of Salt Lake City is heavily patrolled, pr oven almost every time I drive by...and that night especially. I am still amazed that when I can tell a 911 dispatcher the exact location of the vehicle in the parking lot, and that he had pointed a weapon at me several times, that just maybe, maybe, that would be a high priority call.

And everyone is right, self defense classes, kick boxing, and guns would have been a great idea, with the proper training of course. But it still wouldn't have changed much of the situation. I still wouldn't confront someone with a gun unless I absolutely had to, and in my plan, that would have happened very very last.

And no doubt being smarter is better...

[lemon boy]

Just a little hint, if you feel like your life is in immediate jeapardy and/or feel like you just want the police to get there way faster than they ordinarily would tell the 911 dispatcher that you have a concealed carry license and if the po's don't get there soon to just not even bother responding b/c you'll have handled the situation.

Otherwise, your personal safety rests in your hands and the NUMBER ONE safety device you posses is...uummmm...your brain.

Confrontation = escalation

if you don't want any given situation to escalate (and really only a fucking retard would) then you shouldn't be confrontational in the face of confrontation. And a lot of times people with CCW's allow sitations to become confrontational beyond what they otherwise would b/c they are packing. Being smart is better than being armed.

But...being smart and armed....well... you know.

[dbp]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread right now, but reminded me of this...

Marge: That's crazy. Look, I know I don't have any proof, but this woman
*is* trying to kill me.
Wiggum: [sigh] Fine, let me tell you what I tell everybody who comes in here:
the law is powerless to help you.
Marge: Do I have to be dead before you'll help me?
Wiggum: Well, not dead -- dying.
[Marge gets up to leave]
No, no, no, no. Don't walk away. How about this: just show me the
knife ... in your back.
[Marge leaves]
Not too deep, but it should be able to stand by itself.

[Cono Este]

"When I was a kid, my father told me, "never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." Russell Ziskey