Question on Boot Flex

**ski_adk** · 11-12-2005, 12:34 PM

Okay, I just got a new pair of boots and they have adjustable boot flex. My old boots were seriously "old and busted" so, I have no idea what to do about this flex thing. Should I start soft and then go stiff, or start stiff and then go soft. Dirty jokes aside, I'd love to hear what you folks have to say b/c the shop was really no help at all.

Btw...I can ski the whole mountain, in all conditions (I love the East Coast variables), though I must admit, I still have lots of unrealized potential when it comes to bumps, steeps and trees. I'm riding 180 Atomic 9:18s if that matters.

**Core Shot** · 11-12-2005, 12:40 PM

If you are really a decent skier, go stiff.
Todays boots are rarely too stiff, unless they are top of the line race plugs.

What boots are they?

If you really cant figure it out, set one stiff and one soft and take a few runs. You will quickly find out which you like better.

**schuss** · 11-12-2005, 01:01 PM

Think about all the things you didn't like about your old boots in regards to flexing, then try to find a boot that feels like it takes care of all of that. While all the flex scales are different, a flex of around 100 usually takes care of most people pretty well.

**ski_adk** · 11-12-2005, 02:33 PM

The boots are Head Edge 8.7 with Flex from 5.7 Hard to 4.7 Soft.

**Skip Dooley** · 11-12-2005, 02:44 PM

hard......

**Core Shot** · 11-12-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by ski_adk

The boots are Head Edge 8.7 with Flex from 5.7 Hard to 4.7 Soft.

Thats not nearly stiff enough.

Your unrealized potential will continue to remain completely unrealized until you sack up and get a boot stiff enough to give you control over your skis.

**ski_adk** · 11-12-2005, 02:51 PM

Sack up?

Dude, it's not about sack, it's all about dollar and not knowing what the hell any of this tech stuff means. I read about it, but as far as understanding, it ain't there. But thanks for letting me know that I should look for something stiffer. For 300 bucks, I hope I didn't totally waste my money.

**mntlion** · 11-13-2005, 10:55 AM

with no boots on flex your ankle untill your heels lift up. See how far your knees are over your toes.

now with the boots on, and warm, make the boot be able to flex about the same amount.

**ski_adk** · 11-13-2005, 12:27 PM

Thanks mntlion,

I did that and the boots went from slightly upright and forward to that point you mentioned. They seem to do it pretty easily in the skis... I put the skis on in the living room and was rocking back and forth testing the flex. The boots fit perfectly...no sloppiness inside them at all. That's what bugged me about my old boots because they packed out of fit.

And what Head says about them...

Details
Skill: very good skiers
Terrain: versatile, piste and off-piste
Style: very good skiing technique
Speed: medium
Flex Index: 5.7
Sizes: 24.0-25.0-26.0-26.5…-30.5
Colors: anthracite/silver

and what they look like:

**TurxSki** · 11-14-2005, 03:20 PM

Hey There,

Asking after you bought ? Hmn

I see what Head says, but that flex sounds more like beginner to intermediate boot.
Assuming you don't weigh too much, you might do better with something closer to an 8/80.
Ski-Boot shops could probably stiffen the ones you have, adding material in the "leg", if you're stuck with them.
How about renting stiffer,and see how it feels ?
The stiffer the flex, the more you "drive" the ski's. Softer, you get less control, but more shock absorbtion. IMHO

**Core Shot** · 11-14-2005, 03:43 PM

If you haven't skied them yet and can exchange them for a stiffer boot, you may want to do so.
Call the shop and try to work something out.
Better to spend another $150 on top of your $300 to get the right boot for you.
OTOH, if you actually described yourself as an expert all mountain skier and they steered you to this boot, you may have been shopping at MVP Sports and not a real ski shop.
If that is the case, do not trust their judgment about either boots or boot sizing. Do a search here for "boot fitting" - aww hell, just look here:
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showt...t=boot+fitting
make sure the boot you just bought is actually the right shell size.

I dont think anyone is really telling you to get a race stiff boot, but if you are (or want to become) seriously an aggressive expert skier, you will want a stiffer boot.
This seems like a recreatonal model and not a performance model.

**ski_adk** · 11-14-2005, 03:45 PM

Thanks Turx...and yeah...i should have investigated ahead of time, but it was a limited time deal kind of thing and I was a little emotionally unstable since I had just destroyed my old boots.

**XtrPickels** · 11-14-2005, 04:30 PM

Core- MVP sports? Like the chain of stores on the east coast bought out by Decathlon which died off because of their crappy european ways? Man, i missed that place. Footwear department was where it was at...

Ski ADK. I didn't mind a softerboot for the bumps and trees (I'm in Diablo Fires) but I did just post on stiffening them up. Everyone goes over board when new concepts come out. Remember the Elan SCX, the first really shaped ski?
Now Everyone went, Holy crap we can make boots softer, then came the softboot revolution, which flopped. As it is now, good all mountain skiers are still prefering longer skis and stiffer boots then the general public.

I skied Cannon 4 days a week last winter, so I'm use to the EC variable conditions you're talking about. When it comes to testing the flex, it doesn't really matter how you do it. Infact, if you keep the boots, I'd just set them to hard and forget about it. Its not going to be too much for you. But I would also take Core's advice and look at a stiffer all mountain book, Lange Freeride Comp. etc. If you really are serious about improving. Worse comes to worse, Find a deal online and go to a local shop to try stuff on. Normally you should support the locals who are good to you, but if you can't afford to buy anything anyway, I don't see how trying to stuff on is wrong.

**Spats** · 11-14-2005, 05:02 PM

So no one has asked how much he weighs before telling him the boots are too soft?

**ski_adk** · 11-14-2005, 05:07 PM

I'm 205 lbs...all of it sack weight

**mntlion** · 11-15-2005, 10:55 AM

hard to say without seeing you and the boots, but I think too soft.

is the shell fit 1-2cm NO MORE

**Darkside** · 11-15-2005, 12:23 PM

How many days do you ski a year? Sounds like if your boots fit "perfectly", that you bought too big unless you ski less than 20 days a year. If you ski 30+ days, your boots that feel great in the store will be sloppy very soon. Also, cheaper boots have liners with less dense foam that pack out faster. Did you get a custom footbed? Trim-to-fit at least?
Also, without ever skiing with you, I'd say that you bought a boot that is at your level, not something you can progress with. Do it right and go to a real shop with real bootfitters who know what they're talking about. You'll probably spend some more coin, but it's worth it to have things done right.

**ski_adk** · 11-15-2005, 10:26 PM

Last year I skied about 50 days and I'd like to do that again this year. I'm hearing from quite a few folks who have said that I would be better off trying to return them and coining up for a better boot.

My biggest problem now is that I can only exchange them for store credit, which really sucks because I've completely lost trust in this shop now at this point...as long as I can go find the receipt.

Learning about skiing gear is becoming an expensive proposition.

**Core Shot** · 11-15-2005, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by ski_adk

Last year I skied about 50 days and I'd like to do that again this year. I'm hearing from quite a few folks who have said that I would be better off trying to return them and coining up for a better boot.

My biggest problem now is that I can only exchange them for store credit, which really sucks because I've completely lost trust in this shop now at this point...as long as I can go find the receipt.

Learning about skiing gear is becoming an expensive proposition.

Don't lose faith!

Do two things:
1) shell fit yourself. If the shell size is right (you have to remove the liners, etc. and do a finger test) then you are good. If not, go to the next smaller size (shell sizes usually change on the half sizes, but I'm not sure about Head).

2) go to the store and try to get the stiffer head boots. You weigh 205 so you can flex almost anything, but you dont want a race pro flex. Since it seems head fits your foot shape, then stick with Head.

Your boots are in the "All Mountain Cruise" category on the head website

Try something from the "Freeride" category.
Edge 10.7 Flex 7.4 or 6.4
http://www.head.com/ski/products.php...reeride&id=274

or
S8 Flex 7.6 or 6.6
http://www.head.com/ski/products.php...reeride&id=272

or if you want stifffer
S10 Flex 9.3 or 8.3
http://www.head.com/ski/products.php...reeride&id=271

I think either of the first two would be much better for you.

If you cant find the reciept, look for the guy you dealt with or ask for the manager. They should have records. You might be able to show them your credit card statement. Beg and plead.

P.S. - you may not have fully explained what you do and where you want to go. Shop techs hear people bullshit all the time about their skills when in reality the only run they are good at is the mahogony ridge. Your shop may be OK after all if you were not convincing in your description of your skills. Even at 200 pounds, if you are a mediocre tourist skier the boots you have would be ideal.

P.P.S. - if they switch brands on you, pay close attention to how it fits your foot - tightness, pinching, etc. Make sure they shell fit you EVERY time you try on a new boot. Shell fitting without the liner is the only way to do it.

**KANUTTEN** · 11-16-2005, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by ski_adk

Last year I skied about 50 days and I'd like to do that again this year. I'm hearing from quite a few folks who have said that I would be better off trying to return them and coining up for a better boot.

My biggest problem now is that I can only exchange them for store credit, which really sucks because I've completely lost trust in this shop now at this point...as long as I can go find the receipt.

Learning about skiing gear is becoming an expensive proposition.

It really sounds like you should get back to the store and get boots that fit you better both size and stylewise. Nothing is worse than a boot that is not right for you.

My 2 cents on flex; Loads of people say that you need really stiff boots and skis in order to ski well. In my opinion the stiffness is most important on groomers or other hard conditions. You need the stiffness in the boot in order to transfer your use of force forward in the boot to the front part of the ski when starting a turn. And you need a stiff ski to stay stable in speed. In softer conditions you don't drive the ski in the same way - in practice you stay more balanced with weight over the middle of the ski. So stiffness is not so important in softer conditions, imo.

That being said, 5.7 flex is just nothing. With 200 pounds on top of those you will find that the boot gives no resistance if you try to use the boot with some kind of determination. My flextest of boots goes more like the following; standing in the boots clicked into the bindings (normal skiposition) push your knees forward/bend your anckles with real weight and power. The boot should give a nice and even resistance. A soft boot will give almost no resistance until your knee is quite far forward, when there is suddenly quite a bit of resistance. This is not good.

200 pounds, ski 50 days a season; 8 would be a minimum. 10-12 is probably more appropriate, I would think.

PS: Those guys in the store must be complete cunts if they don't let you get a pair of boots that fit you. I don't know what consumer rights you have in the US, but such an attitude really should be illegal. Good luck, anyways

**TurxSki** · 11-16-2005, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Core Shot

1) shell fit yourself. If the shell size is right (you have to remove the liners, etc. and do a finger test) then you are good

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work if you do it yourself. Leaning over to put your fingers in changes everything. Get a buddy (One finger, too tight. 2 fingers, too loose)
Did you look around for info on the Bootfitters site ? http://bootfitters.com/custom_boot_fit_tips.htm

One thing about shops:
Back when I was even more ignorant, we got our first ski boots, as part of a package, in an early season sale at NorSki (Walnut Creek) which is approved by the USBootfitters (above) Safe bet right ?
I got absolutely no advice about sizing, shell fit, or different "lasts", so ended up with a Rossi boot (narrow last). Felt comfy of course, but now I realize it was way big everywhere but across my feet ! My new Footbed/Tecnica's (wide last) are a whole size down ! Lazy JONG hating assistants, or the pressures of the sale ?

**ski_adk** · 11-17-2005, 11:51 AM

Thanks for the help guys, you've given me one heck of an education here. Just as an update, I visited the shop again and told them the situation and it seemed like they knew they were wrong. I'm still not impressed with them -- and won't send any more business their way, but wound up settling on the following boot which fits well and seems to fit my needs.

Nordica GTS10 Flex 90-80

Description:
Shell and Cuff Material: Polyolefine
Easy Entry System: HP SLIDE - IN
Liner: PFP Precision Fit
Footbed: Precision Fit
Flex Adjuster: Hard/Soft
Flex Index: 90-80
Buckles: 4 Micro Alu + 2 Servolock II
Macro Adjustment: 15 mm Macro Adjustment
Velcro Strap: ENERGY DRIVER (by BOOSTER), 35 mm
Rear Spoiler: Performance Spoiler
Canting: +/- 1°