Life Insurance

[claymond]

I recently tried to get life insurance through State Farm, and it seemed both super expensive at $1k a year for a $350k 20 year term policy, and then shortly after I sending the quote my agent said they wouldn't cover me, likely due to my answers to lifestyle questions. That agent, when he was asking me the questions, didn't know where the line was for some mountain activities.

I'm 32, no health conditions or any health issues at all in my history, healthy weight, etc. My dad had a heart attack at 60 is the only family history of illness. I have chewed tobacco since 20, the last few years I've switched to Zyn, which I'm so far unsuccessfully trying to quit.

The lifestyle questions were harder. I'm a wildland firefighter, which they didn't ask any more about. The mountain activities they asked about that I answered "yes" to doing were ice and rock climbing, with and without ropes, mountaineering above 10,000 feet, and foreign travel. The elevation and foreign travel ones are easy, I do those, particularly elevation stuff, regularly. Ice and rock climbing are not so clear.

When does booting a steep couloir with axes and crampons become ice climbing to the insurance world? Does it matter if it's a classic summer easy ice climb, but a popular ski descent in winter and spring? I do that stuff as much as I can, I do true ice climbing very rarely. Same with rock scrambling. Is 4th class scrambling rock climbing?

Some people here have to be knowledgeable about this stuff right?

[singlesline]

Go to policy genius. Quotes from many insurers and while they will spam you, the agents aren’t paid on commission and are just steering you to the various insurers that all have transparent prices. You can check prices directly on Term4Sale (no email or login needed)

As my guy explained it, ice climbing and heli skiing are dealbreakers. Either huge upcharge or just won’t write the policy.

Gym climbing is ok, rock climbing outdoors will raise questions about YDS grade and height off ground (big multi pitch bad). Cat skiing is fine too.

But here’s the trick: once the policy is in place, you can do whatever you want.

The questions are only about your current activities and immediate plans. If you would love to go heli skiing some day but don’t have a trip booked and don’t plan to go in the next year, then you don’t have to say anything about heli skiing.

If you have done some of the activities too recently, the advice was to just take a break for a while. If you just had a kid and need insurance, maybe just don’t ice climb for a while and focus on the baby…If you decide to resume it again after the policy is issued it is no biggie.

[singlesline]

And I’d say no to the crampons and ice axe booting. Don’t volunteer details (to the actual insurer…you can talk it through with an independent agent) but you aren’t lying if you say that’s not ice climbing per your experience.

Ditto for 4th class scrambling. Some insurers actually ask about YDS grades and might be able to make the distinction, but if it isn’t a 5.X, I don’t think it is climbing and wouldn’t report it as such.

[Name Redacted]

I had to go through a broker but got LI at a decent rate in my early 30's. They can also just refuse to cover you if you die doing something that they exclude I think. It wasn't easy because I had a helicopter pilot's license, and was into all the things you listed and more. It went through though. I pay like $200 a year for $250k. No kids so whatever. It is cheaper if you take a physical, but you can do it without a physical and pay more.

[John_B]

Since when is honesty the best policy with insurance? I'm reminded of the Mitch Hedberg quote "I used to do drugs. I still do but, I used to, too"

I used to ice climb...

[Conundrum]

Insurance companies don’t like people tethered to ropes. As for crampons and ice axes, they don’t like those either but you’re a skier. Just tell them you ski. Rock climbing and mountaineering are usually no goes. Find an agent that knows what they’re doing and they’ll help you prior to talking to an underwriter. Now that you’ve been declined, that will show in the creepy database and is also a question on future applications-“have you ever been declined for life insurance?”. There are probably ways around this that won’t void an insurance policy but you’ll need some help.

[Danno]

Since when is honesty the best policy with insurance? I'm reminded of the Mitch Hedberg quote "I used to do drugs. I still do but, I used to, too"

I used to ice climb...

If you actually die doing one of those activities and they discover that you lied on your application about that activity? No bueno.

[claymond]

Go to policy genius. Quotes from many insurers and while they will spam you, the agents aren’t paid on commission and are just steering you to the various insurers that all have transparent prices. You can check prices directly on Term4Sale (no email or login needed)

As my guy explained it, ice climbing and heli skiing are dealbreakers. Either huge upcharge or just won’t write the policy.

Gym climbing is ok, rock climbing outdoors will raise questions about YDS grade and height off ground (big multi pitch bad). Cat skiing is fine too.

But here’s the trick: once the policy is in place, you can do whatever you want.

The questions are only about your current activities and immediate plans. If you would love to go heli skiing some day but don’t have a trip booked and don’t plan to go in the next year, then you don’t have to say anything about heli skiing.

If you have done some of the activities too recently, the advice was to just take a break for a while. If you just had a kid and need insurance, maybe just don’t ice climb for a while and focus on the baby…If you decide to resume it again after the policy is issued it is no biggie.

Thanks I'll check that out!

[claymond]

I want to be honest because:

A) I don't want to pay for insurance that would be declined if I die doing the things that make me want to get life insurance in the first place. I consider myself a skier. You guys would consider me a skier-but will an insurance investigator? I want to be sure that the policy pays out if I do get a policy.

B) If those activities are questionable, I'd rather my wife and close friends not have to stress while being questioned about my life history.

C) I'm generally honest.

I will look into a broker too

[John_B]

If you actually die doing one of those activities and they discover that you lied on your application about that activity? No bueno.

But from my understanding the vast majority of life insurance policies are asking at that point in regards to your policy rate, not controlling your behavior for the entirety of your life insurance policy.

[neufox47]

My understanding of my life insurance policy is that they won’t pay out if I die while roped up or in a plane piloted by an amateur. I know they don’t want to insure people who are too risky so I could see them not underwriting people who take a lot of known risks (I remember getting asked about motorcycle riding - I don’t).


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[babybear]

We have a policy through the American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA) for my husband since he guides and does all sorts of roped and helicoptered stuff.
I'm guessing it's for current AMGA members, but I think there are a couple other groups like the American Alpine Club that offer policies for mountaineers.

[Danno]

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But from my understanding the vast majority of life insurance policies are asking at that point in regards to your policy rate, not controlling your behavior for the entirety of your life insurance policy.

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That is my understanding as well. But, and it is a big but, if they discover that you lied on the application, that you were participating in that activity at the time you purchased the policy, that would void any payout.</p>

[AdironRider]

I recently tried to get life insurance through State Farm, and it seemed both super expensive at $1k a year for a $350k 20 year term policy, and then shortly after I sending the quote my agent said they wouldn&#39;t cover me, likely due to my answers to lifestyle questions. That agent, when he was asking me the questions, didn&#39;t know where the line was for some mountain activities. I&#39;m 32, no health conditions or any health issues at all in my history, healthy weight, etc. My dad had a heart attack at 60 is the only family history of illness. I have chewed tobacco since 20, the last few years I&#39;ve switched to Zyn, which I&#39;m so far unsuccessfully trying to quit. The lifestyle questions were harder. I&#39;m a wildland firefighter, which they didn&#39;t ask any more about. The mountain activities they asked about that I answered &quot;yes&quot; to doing were ice and rock climbing, with and without ropes, mountaineering above 10,000 feet, and foreign travel. The elevation and foreign travel ones are easy, I do those, particularly elevation stuff, regularly. Ice and rock climbing are not so clear. When does booting a steep couloir with axes and crampons become ice climbing to the insurance world? Does it matter if it&#39;s a classic summer easy ice climb, but a popular ski descent in winter and spring? I do that stuff as much as I can, I do true ice climbing very rarely. Same with rock scrambling. Is 4th class scrambling rock climbing? Some people here have to be knowledgeable about this stuff right?

To some lame actuary, you have a family history of cadiovascular issues., are a current tobacco user, and have both a dangerous profession and dangerous hobbies. 1k a year seems pretty cheap honestly (if they were to insure you).
Do you have some sort of guaranteed issue policy through work? I would think in that field it would be a benefit a lot of employees would use. They usually have limits on coverage amounts, but it might take a large bite out of that 350k number you are trying to achieve. Given that I have all the same criteria about (outside of a dangerous profession and I&#39;m a former smoker), that pricing doesn&#39;t seem egregious.

[XXX-er]

I would not lie to any insurance company if the whole point of buying the insurance was you might need it to payout I was riding chair with bartender back in the day who told me he couldn&#39;t get life insurance cuz of 2nd hand smoke. I had it with the mother corp but I&#39;m done with life insurance

[Kevo]

Why do you need life insurance? Do you have dependants?

If you do, a $350k policy seems really low.

[old goat]

If you have a partner and/or kid that depends on your income, consider giving up the death sports.

[Cono Este]

Find a broker, different companies like different people. Everyone uses their financial broker, mistake, Jack of all trades, but When you apply to the wrong company, and are declined, the next company you apply to will know. Those guys do what’s easy, they don’t look around. State Farm, worse.

Find a life ins. Broker, who only does life.

I am a life broker, and I still refer it out, cause I don’t have time to contract with everybody and would do them dis service just putting them into whatever.

[neufox47]

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That is my understanding as well. But, and it is a big but, if they discover that you lied on the application, that you were participating in that activity at the time you purchased the policy, that would void any payout.</p>

I thought you also then had to die of it or it contribute to your death. If you lie about mountain climbing then get killed in a car accident going to the grocery store I didn’t think that was cause to deny the claim?

[claymond]

Well I wish I'd started this thread before trying to get life insurance! I appreciate all the info. To answer some questions:

I don't have dependents and dont plan to, and my spouse is not dependent on my income per se. She makes as much or more than me. A large chunk of her income comes from overtime on fires. If I die, I want her to be able to pay off the mortgage on our house and walk away if she wants to. And not have financial pressure to have to quickly go back out into a stressful dangerous environment.

We are offered group life insurance through work, at one year of base salary plus a couple thousand dollars. When I accepted a permanent position, I was in a different spot in life and declined it. When we got married, we had 60 days to sign up but stupidly decided not to because it didn't seem that good and I didn't think getting it outside work would be that hard.

I dug deeper today and found out that if a wildland firefighter is killed at work their family is eligible for the Public Safety Officer Benefit, the payout is $450k. I had no idea. That takes away about half my motivation to get life insurance honestly.

[singlesline]

I thought you also then had to die of it or it contribute to your death. If you lie about mountain climbing then get killed in a car accident going to the grocery store I didn’t think that was cause to deny the claim?

I would not put it past an insurer to find ANY reason to reject you.

You lied about climbing but died in an accident…but climbing is risky behavior which our models said correlates with a higher risk of car accidents as well. So even if you had told the truth and gotten a plan that excludes climbing accidents, we would have charged higher premiums because we know climbers are riskier when it comes to other activities. Thus we are rejecting your claim.

[Danno]

I thought you also then had to die of it or it contribute to your death. If you lie about mountain climbing then get killed in a car accident going to the grocery store I didn’t think that was cause to deny the claim?

My understanding as well. But if you die mountain climbing and lied about mountain climbing, well...

[neufox47]

Doesn’t work like that. They have to put this down in a contract and the forms are approved and regulated by the state DOI.

(This was in response to the post above Danny)

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[old goat]

Anyone here a worse risk than my kid--rock climbing, heli skiing, sky diving including wing suit, pilot's license, and his unit sometimes deploys to places he's not allowed to tell me. He doesn't need life but was hoping for disability. PS--for a lot of folks here disability is more important than life.

[Name Redacted]

A lifelong smoker is probably higher risk than that. Also, if he is in the military there is probably some kind of coverage right?