What 3L Hardshell for PNW Lift Served?

[ey_allen]

<p>
Maybe this is a question and maybe its a rant, but I&#39;m struggling to find a decent 3L hardshell jacket and pants for lift access (though minimal enough to have in a pack for touring is welcome).</p>
<p>
In the old days with GoreTex I could at least get some sense of garment quality based on some known marketing buzzwords and material selection. Now that everyone (Gore included) is working around PFAS bans, its hard to get a sense of material from perusing the web. Everyone has invented their own version of the 3L membrane to unknown success. Some list waterproofing/breathability numbers, others don&#39;t. And testing is highly flawed and results cherry picked. I don&#39;t have a place nearby I can go to fondle a wide range of jackets which would be incredibly useful right now.</p>
<p>
So here is the question: what are PNW mags using for lift served days? I need something that can hold up to rain and that near rain wet snow that soaks out all those &quot;waterproof but breathable&quot; shells from companies that develop their products more favorable environments.&nbsp;</p>
<p>
My wish list:</p>
<ul>
<li>
3L harshell with the equivalent to GoreTex Pro levels of waterproof and breathability (20k/20k minimum).</li>
<li>
Fitted, not overly baggy but roomy enough to add a layer on colder days.</li>
<li>
Minimalist. I don&#39;t need a powder skirt or&nbsp;30 pockets.</li>
<li>
Pockets that can be accessed wearing a harness or pack.</li>
<li>
Lightweight and packable enough that it would not be out of place in my daypack on dubious backcountry missions.</li>
<li>
Colors. I don&#39;t want to blend into the landscape when I&#39;m lying in a treewell waiting for someone to see me (I&#39;m looking at your Patagonia).</li>
</ul>
<p>
About the only items I have found that seem to come close are the euro brands like Rab Khroma line or Norrona Lofoten. The downside is that they are $$$ and hard to come by with limited stock online. Arcteryx seems to have shit the bed.</p>
<p>
Flylow is a past favorite, but their material was heavier than ideal the last time I bought anything from them. Stio is my wife&#39;s go to, but their Environ line seems to fail the breathability requirement and I don&#39;t like the style of their burlier options.</p>
<p>
What are you PNW mags wearing during these atmospheric river events? Do I just hold onto my beat up Arcteryx GoreTex Pro for one more season?</p>

[TAFKALVS]

Norrona Lofoten. Mountain Equipment Lhotse.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Grundens if it’s raining. Fuck w/b laminates. It’s usually just above freezing, base layer with fleece or wool mid layer and some kinda commercial grade rain gear. Crab/snow blower gloves. You’ll stay dry all day lift served.

[toast2266]

My take is that it all comes down to the waterproofing treatment on the face fabric. It matters a lot less what the 3L membrane is; once the face fabric wets out, it loses all of its breathability. Once the breathability is gone, you're wet from your own perspiration, even if exterior water is still being repelled by the membrane. This is also why non-breathable options that are 100% waterproof still suck; you can get wet from rain or you can get wet from sweat. You're wet either way.

Every brand's waterproofing treatment of their face fabric seems to kinda suck these days. Apparently it's more environmentally friendly to buy a new expensive jacket every two years than it is to use a waterproofing treatment that actually lasts.

That said, I've had better luck with Norrona stuff than anything else.

[nickwm21]

When it’s snain:
Gore-Tex Pro Jacket
Grunden/HH pants
Insulated rubber gloves

When riding lifts; your butt, thighs, hands wet out and get cold first. Jacket may wet out on the shoulders but that’s preferable to hotboxing a rubber coat….


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[Tony911]

If you are looking for Rab, try Thelasthunt.com in canada. Its stock reduction so sizes and colors are limited and there are no returns but if they have what you are looking for, not just Rab, they have some great deals. If you sign up they give you additional discounts frequently off the already discounted price and since you are paying US$ even cheaper. I buy a lot of stuff there and I have bought some Rab I really like, especially the down jackets. My last buy was Smith 4D mags for $175 CA$, not sure what that is in Donald dollars.

[gaijin]

Budget-friendly, reminiscent of Three Layer Marmot/Mountain Hardwear from twenty years ago... Montbell. I own six of their pieces mainly because there is an outlet down the street from me. But Montbell is clearly reminiscent of Marmot and Mountain Hardware of yesteryear. /still am curious about the Norrona offerings in the lift line, though. Not gonna lie.

[Norseman]

[MagnificentUnicorn]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]][emoji640][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]]]

These guys know. If it’s rain snow mix or just plain rain use rain gear. Don’t over insulate and you won’t get wet on the inside. If you insist on skiing in conditions like this it’s the way to go.

[gregL]

<p>
There are still a few ePTFE GORE-TEX Pro jackets still on the market, but they&#39;ll be gone next season when all the GORE membranes will be PE. Buy one on sale and put 303 or old-school C8 DWR on it.</p>

[oetk2]

No issues with my freeride systems shell. I try not to ski rain if I can help it, everything will soak through except for what's been already said above.

[XXX-er]

real rain gear is the best for rain but I don&#39;t ski in the rain In paddling WW its 100% wet so I have used coated nylon paddling gear and it was pretty moist compared to gortex, if I had of known it was so good i woul dhave bought it long ago





Im an arcteryx fanboi

[ey_allen]

Yeah maybe this should be two threads: rain skiing, and 3L shells that can hold up to all the snow resembling rain that you find in the PNW.

I've also grown to appreciate the old school DWR coating, and do my best to keep the water repellent fresh on all my gear regardless. I'd still ideally like to find a shell that can perform at the level I need it to, be good for lift served, but ideally low weight and packable enough to keep in my bag on outings with unknown weather.

Sounds like Norrona is known good at least. I might just buy once cry once for their GoreTex offerings while I still can. Rab looks interesting as well, but I'm having a harder time finding a deal on those and I'm not sure what size of jacket I will end up with so not sure budget sites are a smart play.

[AK47bp]

I enjoy the rain, almost like I get the mountain to myself.

Norrona Lofoten shell, got mine used off gear swap.

I’ve been wearing Gore-Tex Seven Mesh [emoji[emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]]]Mesh mountain biking shorts over my ski pants. Actually works perfectly.

Skied all last weekend in the rain and stayed really dry.


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[nickwm21]

Yeah maybe this should be two threads: rain skiing, and 3L shells that can hold up to all the snow resembling rain that you find in the PNW.

I've also grown to appreciate the old school DWR coating, and do my best to keep the water repellent fresh on all my gear regardless. I'd still ideally like to find a shell that can perform at the level I need it to, be good for lift served, but ideally low weight and packable enough to keep in my bag on outings with unknown weather.

Sounds like Norrona is known good at least. I might just buy once cry once for their GoreTex offerings while I still can. Rab looks interesting as well, but I'm having a harder time finding a deal on those and I'm not sure what size of jacket I will end up with so not sure budget sites are a smart play.

IME You want heavy classic goretex-pro for that (which is not ideal for your packable comment).

It’s probably better to have the group name brands that have shitty DWR vs actual functional DWR now…

Patagonia’s DWR is terrible. I assume any brand that overmarkets their eco-friendlyness probably made some compromises when developing their product…

My BD stuff’s DWR has worked well for a few seasons.


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[gregL]

Waiting to see what brands currently use actual functional DWR . . . I suspect anything with less than 6 carbon atoms in the formula is neither durable nor water repellent . . . BD's DWR has changed in the past couple of years along with everyone else's.

[shroom]

^^someone has to have the factory intel.

gore pro or 3L:

norrona was real bad in 2021. immediate wet out upper and lower

arc good in 2022 but material was super lightweight and not ski worthy

2023 salomon was bad

flylow 2023 mediocre

best experience was 2009ish patagucci

[AK47bp]

Columbia OutDry is a totally waterproof material, no DWR. Just be sure to get it with pit zips because it isn’t breathable.


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[gregL]

<p>
GORE-TEX makes several 3L fabrics, Pro is the top tier . . . everyone else also makes 3L fabrics, usually at the high end of the price spectrum. 3L simply means the scrim or lining is bonded to the membrane and face fabric, rather than a separate piece as in 2L, it is not necessarily a guarantee of degree of weather protection.</p>
<p>
Arcteryx makes ski wear in many models and weights. A 40 denier garment is light and somewhat delicate (Beta LT), a 60 or 80 denier garment is pretty average in both durabilty and weight (Rush), a 100 denier garment is bulletproof (Alpha SV).</p>
<p>
The Helly Hansen Odin 9 Worlds Infinity jacket is burly and quite waterproof and uses no DWR.</p>

[eSock]

Trew makes some great priced, PNW oriented gear. They've also got a touring line if you wanna go lighter weight, I got their touring bibs second hand here in GS but end up using them regularly inbounds as well.

[kootenayskier]

This subject comes up regularly, and in my experience none of the waterproof breathable fabrics available are up to the challenge of soggy chairlift riding. I certainly get a wet ass with my Gore pro Rush bibs. These seem like a viable solution, and I’m going to give them a try when/if they come up with a mens version:
https://www.awning-design.com/shop/p/womenssogfreebib

[SkiLyft]

^^ those look rad for rainy zones


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[ey_allen]

Paging the Raide crew. I'd be happy to help product test gear to see how well it stands up to the PNW.

In other news I took advantage of some stacking REI deals and ordered a heavily discounted Arcteryx Sabre Jacket and Pants. 80D so hopefully more durable than the Norrona Lofoten version, and yet weighs less. I'll see how packable the jacket is, but thats somewhat secondary to having it stand up to resort use.

I still think the DWR will suck compared to the good old days, but it seems like there are no good options out there at the moment.

[nickwm21]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji640][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]This subject comes up regularly, and in my experience none of the waterproof breathable fabrics available are up to the challenge of soggy chairlift riding. I certainly get a wet ass with my Gore pro Rush bibs. These seem like a viable solution, and I’m going to give them a try when/if they come up with a mens version:
https://www.awning-design.com/shop/p/womenssogfreebib

Website says men’s coming this fall….


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