DCA Air Collision Discussion

[The AD]

So why did the Blackhawk need to there in the first place? Seems like crossing the flight path of commercial aircraft that are landing and taking off should not be something that is allowed to happen.

Keep in mind the American flight had been diverted to a different runway just a few minutes prior to the accident. I would imagine the original flight path of the airplane would have been much farther away from the Blackhawk. So, as typical with these accidents: compounding problems. ATC short staffed, an airplane in a recently altered flight path, a helicopter a bit off course...

[MultiVerse]

Regardless, a preponderance of reporting says the Black Hawk helicopter was flying above allowed altitude before crash. Maybe the reporting is wrong, but it seems like an important line of inquiry?

[The AD]

Of course it's important.

[mtnjam]

Kansas TB outbreak, perhaps Blackhawk pilot was told or thought they or someone would do the world a favor and take out a flight from Kansas full of tuberculosis?

Considering there's so many conspiracy theories abound this message board, why not add to them.

Joking aside, what an awful event, military helicopter crashes into a passenger aircraft, how does that happen in this day and age. Is our ATC infrastructure THAT bad in this country? I mean, ATC in ATW, GRB, MLK and all the other tiny little airports surrounding Oshkosh during the EAA have no problem keeping takeoffs and landings organized.

[Ted Striker]

Dude, I don't give a shit if you defer to me or not. You could put me on ignore for all I care.

[ötzi]

Looks to me like the Helo pilot was cocky and didn't think he could be wrong. And paid. Somebody could make a comment about the arrogance of the US Military but it won't be me.

[MultiVerse]

Dude, I don't give a shit if you defer to me or not. You could put me on ignore for all I care

I don't want to ignore you. I respect you. Honestly, I'd like to hear your opinion about the helicopter pilots not being told they were in the wrong place to begin with (assuming that's the case)?

[The AD]

I think that's where the ATC shortage comes into play. Would a controller dedicated to monitoring helicopter traffic have been able to realize the Blackhawk was out of position in time to alert them and avoid the collision?

[dunfree]

I’m not an air traffic expert, just a simple dentist that also likes to ski. So why did the Blackhawk need to there in the first place? Seems like crossing the flight path of commercial aircraft that are landing and taking off should not be something that is allowed to happen. Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

It was a VIP transport type unit and the quickest/leastdisruptive/approved route to-from Ft Belvoir to DC is the river. And it's congested. This isn't Ohare where you had three runway that are 120degree apart, there's less than 70-degree between the three at DCA.

[bennymac]

The helicopter pilot was told by ATC that that CRJ was landing on the new runway its approach had been changed to.

question: could ATC (whether it’s the 1 controller or 2 or 20) have been able to tell that the helicopter was not at 200 feet but instead 400 feet (I may have those numbers wrong but you get the idea)

also when people are guessing that the helicopter had visual on a different inbound flight - was the flight ahead of or behind the CRJ in the approach

Seems like the helicopter flight path turned west over the river and soon after collided with the plane - unless a controller was solely focused on the helicopter and could also tell its exact altitude relative to the CRJ I don’t see how at that moment an extra controller would have made the difference but maybe a quick call to the helicopter to do some evasive maneuvering coulda possibly saved it

[MultiVerse]

According to the OP's article the helicopter was both too high and on the wrong flight path. Broadly speaking, ATC radar can tell both the altitude and location as well as the speed of an aircraft.

[Bunion 2020]

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...rimary-targets

[truckeelocal]

Radar is a backup, at best. Transponders give very precise data and I'm presuming that military aircraft are using them in congested, non-conflict, air space. Hell even airfield ground traffic and gliders have them.

[MultiVerse]

ATC radar transponder responds to signal that gets interrogated by the ground-based radar system

[stuckathuntermtn]

Transponders and radar are still used, but it's old technology. Look up ADS-B. The military may use it too. At least ADS-B out, maybe? That technology is what you're seeing on Flight Radar, not likely actual radar tracks. If it was fully implemented at the time, it probably would have saved my brother's life. Actually, I have no idea if it's required in Alaska. May also not be required for low level flights like the one the Blackhawk was on. There are quite a few exceptions to position reporting technology requirements.
And the Blackhawk being 200' too high is still weird. You mean to tell me it was ok for it to cross 175' under a landing passenger jet? That is not the kind of thing you do on purpose. Not anywhere near that close. Jetliners move very fast and aircraft leave wakes. Separation between aircraft is normally measured in thousands of feet or nautical miles. It seems more like they shouldn't have been flying that close to a runway apron. A 3 degree glideslope (normal landing procedure) is 300' for every nautical mile, so a little over a nautical mile from the runway threshold is where they hit. Why the fuck would a chopper choose or be routed through there?

[teleee]

30% of the post on this page are multiverse telling everyone how smart he is - color me surprised


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[civilcoconut]

Trump admin also recently refused cost of living increase for air traffic controls living in expensive cities. But DEI could be a factor in the FAA's hiring practices for over a decade leading to a shortage of air traffic controllers. It will be dry at times—others can editorialize more: "A scandal at the FAA has been moving on a slow-burn through the courts for a decade, culminating in the class-action lawsuit currently known as Brigida v. Buttigieg, brought by a class who spent years and thousands of dollars in coursework to become air traffic controllers, only to be dismissed by a pass-fail biographical questionnaire with a >90% fail rate, implemented without warning after many of them had already taken, and passed, a skill assessment. ... People will turn this into a culture war issue, and in one sense, that is perfectly fair: it represents a decades-long process of institutional failure at every level. A thousand things had to go wrong to get to this point, and if people want to harp on it—let them. But this is not a fundamentally partisan issue. Virtually nobody, looking dispassionately at that questionnaire, wants to defend it. Everybody wants competent, effective air traffic controllers. Everybody, I suspect, can sympathize with the people who paid and worked through years of education to have their career path suddenly pulled away for political reasons far beyond their control. " https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/...quick-overview[/URL]

From the article: In 2016, Congress passed Public Law 114-190, which among other things banned the use of biographical assessments as a first-line hiring tool for air traffic controllers. So the practice in question ended almost a decade ago. DOT OIG seems to think the FAA has been following a flawed staffing model, lacks good scheduling tools, has age out retirment requirements, poor schedules from a worker perspective, stagnate salaries, slow training, etc. And who has been aware of that and apprently not done anything substantive about it? Successive legislatures and executive branch leaders, but hey, look over there it's DEI!.

[mcski]

Everyone is overlooking the treadmill’s role in this disaster

[shroom]

was the treadmill made in america?

[Skistack]

And the Blackhawk being 200' too high is still weird. You mean to tell me it was ok for it to cross 175' under a landing passenger jet? That is not the kind of thing you do on purpose. Not anywhere near that close. Jetliners move very fast and aircraft leave wakes. Separation between aircraft is normally measured in thousands of feet or nautical miles. It seems more like they shouldn't have been flying that close to a runway apron. A 3 degree glideslope (normal landing procedure) is 300' for every nautical mile, so a little over a nautical mile from the runway threshold is where they hit. Why the fuck would a chopper choose or be routed through there?

This. How close is still considered a safe distance? Does not seem much margin for error.

[MultiVerse]

@ civilcoconut & Bunion 2020, the article's author is a Pete Buttigieg supporter and notes that in 2016 congress "banned the use of biographical assessments as a first-line hiring tool for air traffic controllers," but fighting the class-action lawsuit still went forward. His point is these things happened, along with / followed by other institutional flaws coconut mentioned, which were created by one admin and then brushed under the rug by the next two subsequent admins

And the Blackhawk being 200' too high is still weird. You mean to tell me it was ok for it to cross 175' under a landing passenger jet? That is not the kind of thing you do on purpose. Not anywhere near that close. Jetliners move very fast and aircraft leave wakes. Separation between aircraft is normally measured in thousands of feet or nautical miles. It seems more like they shouldn't have been flying that close to a runway apron. A 3 degree glideslope (normal landing procedure) is 300' for every nautical mile, so a little over a nautical mile from the runway threshold is where they hit. Why the fuck would a chopper choose or be routed through there?

Yeah, and the Black Hawk at least a half mile off course. Image upload isn't working, but as you point out this occurred *shockingly* close to the runway apron.

[XXX-er]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

sounds like a bunch of swiss cheese to me,

the last car accident which really could have killed me and i can still see it was 3 completely FUBARed things happening ALL at the same time and I'm not even sure if i could have recovered from 1 of them

[summit]

Air ambulance (Lear 55) crashed into houses in Philly at a very high speed and steep angle, 6 onboard, more on ground, 3 alarm response RIP

[summit]

Keep in mind the American flight had been diverted to a different runway just a few minutes prior to the accident. I would imagine the original flight path of the airplane would have been much farther away from the Blackhawk. So, as typical with these accidents: compounding problems. ATC short staffed, an airplane in a recently altered flight path, a helicopter a bit off course...

Height is procedural separation but you still gotta do more than that factor. There is ATC audio abundantly available on Youtube (channels dedicated to interesting, amusing, and tragic event ATC recordings).

ATC advised both aircraft of traffic (each other).
The UH-60 asked for visual separation.
ATC approved and instructed UH-60 to pass behind the CRJ.
UH-60 was too high and did not maintain visual separation. Collision.

By all reports UH-60 was on a training flight and the pilot in command was very experienced. UH-60s are 2 pilot. There was a crew chief in the back.
Ironically the aircraft in the pattern in front of CRJ had been asked to take the alternate runway but said unable. The CRJ was then asked to and said OK. CRJ was then doing what they were supposed to do.

I am not a pilot. I know a little about flying and air crash investigations as those are family professions.

Speculation: UH-60 task saturated on a night training flight in busy airspace in a tight cooridor and didn't catch their out of procedure altitude, and also thought they saw the CRJ but were looking at another aircraft or object in the busy airspace. ATC controller working double task is saturated, doesn't realize (or cannot tell) helo is too high, not sure if primary was giving alt and not sure if the UH-60 was ADS-B?

[stealurface831]

holy shit the video of the learjeat is insane. full nosedive. i would try to embed it but ya know. trg.