DCA Air Collision Discussion

[Bunion 2020]

Seen several "experts" on Military readiness opine that these types of training flights are crucial for maintaining a razor sharp edge for the Rotary pilots. Thing is, members of the flying public did not sign up to be a part of the training.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Aviation Cascade

Contributing factors I've seen in the analysis

Critique of the Helo Flight Route (don't know what that is actually called?) on the sectional being directly below the the final approach for runway 33

ATC usually has 2 controllers with 1 dedicated to helo traffic for that airspace

Blackhawks have limited visibility for the pilot and copilot astern (don't know how you say that in aviation) of 9 and 3. With a crew of 3 the Flight Engineer is supposed to monitor the rest. A crew of 4 is preferred.

Seems like all of the above erroded margin and contributed to an inability to See and Avoid.

[ripvw]

Controller here, I can probably add some context. A couple of points: A tower controller doesn't use radar as a primary tool for separating aircraft. The tower display is mainly for situational awareness, and traffic is controlled visually by looking out the windows. The separation standard between IFR (instrument flight rules) and VFR(visual flight rules) aircraft less than 19000 pounds in class B airspace is, 500 feet vertical or visual separation or target resolution. The last one is what we always refer to as "green between"...in other words, don't let the targets touch. Keep in mind you only need one of these forms of separation. In this case the controller called the traffic early, the helo saw them and requested visual separation. For a busy controller this is great, as the pilot, not you, is now responsible for the separation. It takes that task off of your mental to do list. That said, I've always run on a trust but verify principle when it comes to visual separation. If I approve visual, I scan back periodically to make sure everyone is doing what they are supposed to. And that's exactly what the controller did in this case. I'm sure he noticed the helo getting uncomfortably close to the CRJ and went back to make sure he still saw him...which the pilot confirmed. I've done this exact thing literally thousands of times without issue. It seems pretty obvious now the helo was looking at a different aircraft.

Staffing is a gigantic mess and has been for a really long time. As much as I detest DJT, this isn't his fault. The staffing issues are the results of decades of underfunding and mismanagement by both political parties. There have been multiple rounds of hiring freezes, government shutdowns, sequestration and just dumb hiring practices. Pinning the staffing problems on any one issue (like DEI) is just ignorant. Outside of underfunding, at its core staffing solutions always ignore a key problem. By necessity, the training is extremely rigorous and takes a long time. Most of the busier facilities I've worked, the washout rate is around 50%. That's after we've already lost about a quarter of new hires at the academy. Depending on the complexity of the facility, it can take anywhere from 1-3 years to be fully certified. The FAA plans have never factored in training attrition into its hiring. If we are short 1000 controllers, they will hire 1000 and think the problem is fixed. But what they've done is hire 1000 trainees that will net maybe 500 controllers in 2 or 3 years. It would be like counting medical students as doctors. If you need a 1000 controllers, you would need to hire at least double that amount and understand you aren't going to have them certified for a couple of years.

Be happy to answer any other ATC questions if people have them.

[Bunion 2020]

Thanks for joining in.

Do ATCs handle individual runways or targets?

[ripvw]

Thanks for joining in.

Do you handle individual runways or targets?

Really depends on the facility and traffic volume. All of the functions in a control tower are divided into areas of responsibility. In its simplest iteration, there is a ground controller that gets aircraft back and forth to the runway, a local controller that works the runways and the airspace immediately around the airport and a clearance delivery/flight data controller that issues IFR and VFR clearances. In busy complex environments, there maybe two or more local and ground controllers assigned to particular runways. There are often also hand off or assist controllers that operate as a second set of eyes for the controller actually working the aircraft. There is a great deal of coordination that happens between controllers to move aircraft from one point to another. What you hear on the radio is only a portion of what the controller is actually doing.

[MultiVerse]

The traffic control screen for this incident shows (and sounds) a red "CA" flashing, which stands for Conflict Alert. And you can see the two aircraft flying towards each other both in heading and altitude change before the alert.

So, let's take politics out of it and stipulate 100-percent fault lies with the helo pilots for not maintaining visual separation. The question is under what circumstance does air traffic control issue vector avoidance calls in an air traffic control area when planes are flying VFR?

[ripvw]

The traffic control screen for this incident shows (and sounds) a red "CA" flashing, which stands for Conflict Alert. And you can see the two aircraft flying towards each other both in heading and altitude change before the alert.

So, let's take politics out of it and stipulate 100-percent fault lies with the helo pilots for not maintaining visual separation. The question is does air traffic control issue vector avoidance calls in an air traffic control area if planes are flying VFR?

Once the pilot accepts visual separation, the controllers responsibility is done. The pilot has accepted 100% responsibility for missing the other aircraft. Having a CA on aircraft doing visual separation is common place as the computer doesn’t know they see each other.

[ripvw]

I guess I didn’t really answer your question. Vectors or other instructions would be appropriate if the pilot isn’t providing visual separation.

[ripvw]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]][emoji639][emoji640][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]]]I’m pretty sure that the default for night landings at SFO is visible separation on parallel runways.

This is true.

[subtle plague]

@ripvw
Soo what you're saying is that you and your dwarf friends were hired by the democrats? Got it.

[ripvw]

[emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji639]]@ripvw
Soo what you're saying is that you and your dwarf friends were hired by the democrats? Got it.

Yep, that’s it.

[Ted Striker]

@ripvw, thanks for chiming in.

Working anywhere with a high number of movements is way tougher than flirting with the FAs in the forward galley, and drinking cerveza on the layover. Massive respect.

I've known a few pilots over the years who washed out of ATC - and a few who succeeded. One is a TCA controller, and another was at a small tower (before the powers that be switched it to uncontrolled). TCA guy was constant stress for the first year. I swear it visually aged him. The tower guy called himself the Maytag Repairman. He'd say things like "damn Cessna woke me up!"

[old goat]

Maybe if the med student washout rate was anywhere close to ATC we'd have better health care in this country and deaths from medical errors would be as rare as plane crashes.

(That said, I've never liked the pilot checklist analogy for medicine--imagine flying into an airport you've never flown into before in a plane you've never flown before with half the parts broken. That's medicine. All the more reason to make getting a med license more difficult.)

[summit]

You can weed people out at program selection, or you can weed people out during the program, or you can weed people out post-grad. Which is better and more efficient?

[subtle plague]

Or you can just do weed.

[old goat]

There's no way to predict how someone will perform as a doctor or an ATC based on grades and tests and applications. Until you see how people perform in actual situations it's a guess.

[XXX-er]

I did ^^ until micro dosing, an then no need

[XXX-er]

" There's no way to predict how someone will perform as a doctor "

i heard if you have no empathy, no bedside manor its a fast track to surgical rotation

I was pointing out to ski bro he was an anestitist which which is practicly a fucking surgeon,

Just sit behind a screen and twiddle some dials while reading a copy of the Guardian

[old goat]

WSJ, definitely not the Guardian.

[ripvw]

There's no way to predict how someone will perform as a doctor or an ATC based on grades and tests and applications. Until you see how people perform in actual situations it's a guess.

This is 100% true for controllers. Either you have the aptitude for it or you don't. I've washed out many people that looked great on paper, but just couldn't do it.

[Bunion 2020]

Seems like a really difficult job that is not getting any easier.

[Ted Striker]

Kevo: I’m pretty sure that the default for night landings at SFO is visible separation on parallel runways.

That's true, but there are differences from the pointy end. At SFO, 28L and 28R have localizers. Even when you're cleared the visual, you have the localizer tuned up to double check that you're on centerline, because when the wind isn't straight down the runway, the airplane crabs (nose is pointing off of the direction of travel). And the runways there are very close to each other (due to geographic constraints). On top of that, all arrivals there are from STARs (GPS routing).

When weather is good enough (majority of the time), DCA is a purely visual approach from both ends. Coming in from the north there are so many turns along the river that it's easiest (at least IMO) to hand fly the whole thing. Coming up from the south is easier, but still isn't a straight line to Rwy 1 because there's restricted airspace on the east side. So what everyone is cleared to do is the Mt Vernon Visual Approach which instructs pilots to remain over the Potomac once inside of 6 miles from the airport. That means making turns, and relies on you seeing the river shores, the bridge, and the runway.

I've never been asked to land on Rwy 33 in the Airbus, but in the CRJ, they asked all the time. That means hugging the shoreline from the bridge, and turning a very short final. And that's all done by manually driving the airplane while looking out the windows.

[bennymac]

Ripvw and Ted - thanks for posting such interesting insight

[ripvw]

One thing I will note, while ATC can be a difficult job, it's also quite rewarding. Believe it or not, working busy traffic can be really fun. There is nothing quite like cramming the final full of airplanes and then walking out of the radar room and seeing all the lights lined up as far as you can see. Super cool!

[XXX-er]

" WSJ, definitely not the Guardian. "

bro is a socialist and so he claims MD's make/ he made too much money, I can tell what kind of chair ride convo's will happen by how many towers pass before he rants

" we need a revolution man "