Official 2025 MLB thread

[BmillsSkier]

The stereotypical 90 year old out of touch Hall of Fame voter who gets to make it all about himself once a year can fuck right off.

[ex-powderbroker]

CC
Ichiro
Wagner?

[stealurface831]

Wagner.

it was time he got his due.

[Danno]

Agree

[BmillsSkier]

CC will always be a favorite of mine. Class act.

[ex-powderbroker]

CC will always be a favorite of mine. Class act.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/ml...s-mark/?sn-amp

billy wagner?

very nice reliever but i don’t see it. didn’t throw a thousand innings. did he have a cy young? a ws win? anything memorable? who is next, papelbon? chapman? nathan? gagne? the best teams usually have a guy like wagner. he was more durable than most but not at a level of mo, smoltz, eck, hoffman.

would the mets even retire his number? i’d vote twice for john franco but c’mon.

[Danno]

Wagner was the most unhittable lefty of all time. Yes, he didn't throw 1000 innings, he threw 900. ERA+ of 187.

For lefty pitchers with 900 innings pitched (not just relief pitchers, all pitchers), though, Wagner is first in OPP Avg (.187), OPP OPS (.558), WHIP (.998), ERA (2.31), and K.9IP (11.92). That is all the lefties of the modern live ball era.

And another couple of factoids: Billy Wagner could return to the majors, surrender 100 consecutive hits, and have the same career opponent batting average as Mariano Rivera (.211). Wagner could surrender 200 consecutive hits and still have a lower career opponent batting average than Lee Smith (.237).

He wasn't Rivera, nobody was. Rivera was one of those rare players who is simply the unquestioned best at his position. But Wagner ranks right up there with any other reliever.

[alias_rice]

He also was a natural righty, but after breaking his arm a few times he taught himself how to pitch lefty. Then proceeded to strike out 35% of every hitter he ever faced.

[irul&ublo]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/ml...s-mark/?sn-amp

billy wagner?

very nice reliever but i don’t see it. didn’t throw a thousand innings. did he have a cy young? a ws win? anything memorable? who is next, papelbon? chapman? nathan? gagne? the best teams usually have a guy like wagner. he was more durable than most but not at a level of mo, smoltz, eck, hoffman.

would the mets even retire his number? i’d vote twice for john franco but c’mon.

Seriously? Not at the level of Mo or Eck means you’re not HOF material?


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[ex-powderbroker]

i’m not sure. if you look at the relievers in the hall he’s the worst one, right? and there are at least a handful of guys that i think are comparable with 20-30war, same role, that i just don’t see as having a huge impact on the game given limited innings. Obviously Im in the minority.

The difference between him and someone who won’t get a single vote like David Robertson is pretty small.

[Danno]

No, he isn't the worst one. He's better than Lee Smith ever was. He was better than Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter. Arguably better than Hoffman. I think the only two relievers that clearly have a better case than him are Mariano and Eck (hard to compare him to Hoyt Wilhelm or Gossage since their usage was so different, and even Eck is hard because so much of his value came from his SP days).

What part of the stats I posted are you not looking at? All of them, it seems, because again, for all players with 900 IP or more (which by the way is 15 years of 60 IP -- a normal amount of innings for a closer --- so not a short career total for a closer), he was the most unhittable lefty in baseball history. And get out of here with that Robertson shit, Wagner's ERA+ is 43 points better, his WHIP is .158 better, OPP average, OPP OPS, all significantly better. I'll repeat, in the modern era, i.e. the last 100+ years, he is literally the most unhittable lefty ever. Come on, man.

[Danno]

And I think WAR, which is a stat I find very valuable, is not as useful for closers, because it will value middle relievers more highly because they pitch more innings.

[BmillsSkier]

I like that the Baseball HoF still seems to mean something when compared to the others (basketball is such a fucking joke) but it also tends to take itself entirely too seriously and debates like this one illustrate that.

Oh, you were a top ten XXXX in the history of this game? Sorry, you can't come in.

You weren't as good as the best ever XXXX in the history of the game? Benny's Hall of Very Good and Sports Bar and Grille is down the street, get the pickled eggs next to Ted Williams' frozen head.

Don't get me started on the voters.

[ex-powderbroker]

to say that he’s the best or most unhittable lefty EVAR is a little disingenuous as closers have on been used like this since the late 80s.

Chapman strikes out 15/9. Is he more unhittable? His FIP is better than Wagner.

Kenley Jansen, in.

Joe Nathan was really good.

Pap and Robertson really aren’t far behind.

It really just comes down to what kind of hall you want, I guess.

Tom Prince, best back up catcher.

Javier Lopez, greatest LOOGY

In some ways those would help tell the story of baseball as well, but maybe not obvious greatness.

Wagner is clearly better than Lee Smith but if there was a mechanism for tossing people out he’d be one of the first five, no?


super interesting article written by a ninth grade girl and her dad on there being too few relievers in the hall:

https://sabr.org/journal/article/mor...me-which-ones/

[emoji2955]

[Danno]

I will repeat, for lefty pitchers with 900 innings pitched (not just relief pitchers, all pitchers), Wagner is first in OPP Avg (.187) (not to mention OPP OPS (.558), WHIP (.998), ERA (2.31), and K.9IP (11.92)). That is all the lefties of the modern live ball era. Thus, to say that he's the most unhittable lefty ever for pitchers with 900 IP min is not disingenuous, it's an objective fact.

To point out that Chapman currently has a better FIP proves what, exactly? To argue that Wagner doesn't belong because some other pitchers not yet eligible might get in, or that "Joe Nathan was really good" (is that even an argument? in any event, Nathan should have gotten a longer look but even so, his numbers aren't as good as Wagner's) is silly. And no way does Papelbon get in, and Jansen unlikely though he's still pitching so his numbers could change.

If you want to make an actual fact-based argument, feel free; there are certainly arguments that could be made. If you just want to complain because Wagner doesn't feel like a hall of famer to you, then keep doing what you're doing.

[ex-powderbroker]

i’m on the fence. maybe even coming around. i don’t want to die on this hill but click war per year and see how many active pitchers there are that are better than him.

they won’t continue to be as productive as he was but say they are. is he now a better fit in the hall of very good given that clase, bautista, crochet, holton, williams, etc are outperforming him at this random but current time?

that’s why i think i would have been in the 14% but im listening to why people think he’s a hall of famer.

[ex-powderbroker]

In 2025 news, the Sox have made some big moves. If they get Bregman I think the east will be very competitive.

[irul&ublo]

I like that the Baseball HoF still seems to mean something when compared to the others (basketball is such a fucking joke) but it also tends to take itself entirely too seriously and debates like this one illustrate that.

Oh, you were a top ten XXXX in the history of this game? Sorry, you can't come in.

You weren't as good as the best ever XXXX in the history of the game? Benny's Hall of Very Good and Sports Bar and Grille is down the street, get the pickled eggs next to Ted Williams' frozen head.

Don't get me started on the voters.

I always wondered where Ted’s head ended up


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[stealurface831]

big shoutout to my guy Jurickson Profar for getting that check today. Atlanta got them a good one.

[BmillsSkier]

3/$41M seems like a relative deal for the Bravos.

31 years old is old though.

[BmillsSkier]

Every year about this time I'm reminded of what a crime it is that more of that 1995 Indians team isn't in the HoF by now.

Kenny Lofton? Albert Belle? Manny (when does the roid cloud lift)? Omar (yes, Omar's off field issues are probably keeping Omar out, but the HoF is full of deplorable shitbags, isn't it supposed to be about baseball accomplishments?)...

[ex-powderbroker]

Lofton should be in. Hershiser?

[BmillsSkier]

Bulldog? Probably not, but man he was fun to watch pitch. The scoreless innings streak deserves some consideration though.

[ex-powderbroker]

yeah, he has such a short peak, and not enough counting stats great pitcher for awhile though.

Hopefully the veteran committee puts Lofton in. Kenny was really overshadowed by Griffey but the reality is that Griffey was riding on his Seattle reputation for the last half of his career (although he still had some pretty legit power).

[alias_rice]

yeah, he has such a short peak, and not enough counting stats great pitcher for awhile though.

Hopefully the veteran committee puts Lofton in. Kenny was really overshadowed by Griffey but the reality is that Griffey was riding on his Seattle reputation for the last half of his career (although he still had some pretty legit power).

Injuries caught up to him in his early 30’s, but what really hurt Griffey was that he stayed clean during the steroid era. But if you look at his stats he was still putting up an 850+ ops every year up until his 38 year old season. Pretty damn good considering all of the pitchers were juiced. And yes, 630 bombs and over 550 extra base hits would be considered legit power.