25/26 gear rumors thread

[tompietrowski]

for an average skier boa will be better because he doesn't have to figure out how the buckles work.
if your boot is 2 sizes to big and your skis are chin high. the closure system doesn't matter at all

but the core crew has to be convinced otherwise the street credibility doesn't work.

I do agree with you here. That is why we have not told any athlete or ambassador which boot they have to use. We let them choose. So far we have not had anyone test a boa boot and move back to a buckle boot. I’m sure we will at some point but it has not happened yet.

[wasatchback]

Kreichmayr was seen testing Head dual BOA boots last year (2023) at Beaver Creek. No BOA boot has made it into a WC competition to date. Kreichmayr has said it’s too condition specific. And when conditions change three times in the course of a downhill run that’s why you haven’t seen it. The supposed BOA sightings in WC have actually been another product called Cross Lace. Which is a dial/buckle combo that somehow doesn’t violate the BOA patent.

BOA doesn’t work with boots where the shell is close to the foot and the liner is relatively dense. It requires either a completely different shape to a mold and a liner specifically designed to work with BOA or you can half ass it and just put soft plastic over the top of the boot as some manufacturers have chosen to do. The same mold doesn’t work with buckles and BOA, they need to be designed differently in order to optimize them for one vs. the other.

Double BOA is the dumbest looking thing in ski boots since the Nordica rear/mid entry boot in the early 2000s that we all called the weed whacker. I can’t for the life of me recall what it was called. The BOA dials stick so far off the boot it’s crazy. Cables going everywhere. It’s advanced engineering gone wrong and it’s a way for companies to get people to buy new boots cause there’s something new. Supposedly upper BOA actually has a performance benefit vs buckles. Lower BOA simply doesn’t. It’s all about comfort and convenience.

We’re all taking about it so clearly it’s worked in some way shape or form.

[byates1]

^ fair take

[SkiLyft]

Quote:

The same mold doesn’t work with buckles and BOA, they need to be designed differently in order to optimize them for one vs. the other.


Soooo this is exactly what I was thinking, playing devils advocate here. Did K[emoji638] design a #doublefuckingboa boot, change one to buckles, have the athletes ski it.

If this was the case, of course the athletes would choose the boa closure system. The boot was optimized for it.

Anywho, enough of the tar and feathers.

[tompietrowski]

Quote:

The same mold doesn’t work with buckles and BOA, they need to be designed differently in order to optimize them for one vs. the other.


Soooo this is exactly what I was thinking, playing devils advocate here. Did K[emoji638] design a #doublefuckingboa boot, change one to buckles, have the athletes ski it.

If this was the case, of course the athletes would choose the boa closure system. The boot was optimized for it.

Anywho, enough of the tar and feathers.

Good question. So to begin we were using bench mark boots which our athletes had previously used. These included the head raptor the Dalbello Drs and we added in the atomic Redster as it’s a great boot.

We initially bench mark tested these as they came ie buckles. We then converted them to boa lower. At first we did not even know if the thicker shells used on these boots would even work with boa. We back to back tested these converted boots vs the buckle original and this allowed us to get the data we needed to conclude boa works perfectly on this style of shell and was still the preferred system.

With this in mind we developed the first Prototype molds which we develop in 23.5 and 27.5. These were boa only on the lower as we had no need to do further buckle testing. We did however produce both buckle and boa cuffs for these boots. Both were tested to determine what would work best and we developed the product line from feedback from this testing, boa cuff would be used on the top models and buckles would be used on the lower flex models.

[subtle plague]

but the core crew has to be convinced otherwise the street credibility doesn't work.

You’re in the core crew? You’re so cool. My whole life all I’ve ever wanted was to be cool enough to be in the core crew.[/QUOTE]

You underestimate him.Twat is a core crew consultant. He shakes or nods his head in the lift line and the core crew uses what he approves. You don't have that in the US. It's a Euro thing. They Test all the new products with core crew consultants before they let the influencers have them. After that you see it on the pros.

[twat]

but the core crew has to be convinced otherwise the street credibility doesn't work.

You’re in the core crew? You’re so cool. My whole life all I’ve ever wanted was to be cool enough to be in the core crew.[/QUOTE]



30min of product journalism on a wire cable helps bent the shell around my foot. Can’t wait for the explanation about cuff boa next autumn.

[twat]

You’re in the core crew? You’re so cool. My whole life all I’ve ever wanted was to be cool enough to be in the core crew.

You underestimate him.Twat is a core crew consultant. He shakes or nods his head in the lift line and the core crew uses what he approves. You don't have that in the US. It's a Euro thing. They Test all the new products with core crew consultants before they let the influencers have them. After that you see it on the pros.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you can blame me for the shift debacle too!

[matyt]

To complement @wasatchback already very complete answer.
There were pictures of Alex Vinatzer, an italian skier, using an Atomic Redster with lower buckles Boa, while training in Senales valley (If I am not mistaken).
I am pretty sure his experimentation stopped there, as he has not used them in any WC race so far.

[subtle plague]

You underestimate him.Twat is a core crew consultant.

Yeah, you can blame me for the shift debacle too!

I bet you also greenlit the Salomon BBR and the Black diamond gigawatt. Fucking twats in the ski industry.

( I actually think the shift 2.0 seems to work?)

[Conundrum]

I guess the boot makers planned for the boa hate by offering boots in both buckles and boa. Nothing like forcing the consumer to buy a new product by offering updated legacy products.

[Dee Hubbs]

To complement @wasatchback already very complete answer.
There were pictures of Alex Vinatzer, an italian skier, using an Atomic Redster with lower buckles Boa, while training in Senales valley (If I am not mistaken).
I am pretty sure his experimentation stopped there, as he has not used them in any WC race so far.

Vinatzer actually used that boot during his race in Sölden.

[tompietrowski]

To complement @wasatchback already very complete answer.
There were pictures of Alex Vinatzer, an italian skier, using an Atomic Redster with lower buckles Boa, while training in Senales valley (If I am not mistaken).
I am pretty sure his experimentation stopped there, as he has not used them in any WC race so far.

That was not a boa system that was a system atomic call cross lace built by an Italian buckle and component supplier. I don’t think you have seen the last of it. It’s very similar to what Lange have on the low end concept boot if you want to understand it better.

[Marshal Olson]

Double BOA is the dumbest looking thing in ski boots since the Nordica rear/mid entry boot in the early 2000s that we all called the weed whacker. I can’t for the life of me recall what it was called.

Don't be dissin on syntech, bro. there were 300 post threads @ aol communities talking about how dope it was.

[twat]

How about rear entry boots with tech toes. No need for a walking function. Open walk / close ski.

[XXX-er]

When my GF ( level 3 ski instructor ) seen my sx 92's she asked me " So do ya like them greek ski boots ? "


I'm pretty sure bOA will be fine

if people are thinking these are spindly snow board boot cables, there gona break and leave us high centered, the whole thing was poorly spun but that was just to TGR, the average skier isnt going obsess over BOA like some wankers on TGR

[matyt]

@tompietrowski oh dear, you are right. Not a boa, and not in training, this was in Soelden.
He did not continue to use it, I guess.

[kid-kapow]

BOA doesn’t work with boots where the shell is close to the foot and the liner is relatively dense. It requires either a completely different shape to a mold and a liner specifically designed to work with BOA or you can half ass it and just put soft plastic over the top of the boot as some manufacturers have chosen to do. The same mold doesn’t work with buckles and BOA, they need to be designed differently in order to optimize them for one vs. the other.

It would be interesting to get Matt's and Tom's take on this. You know, since engineers are so famous for not being bombastic and being nuanced in their approach to different solutions. Interesting take nonetheless, so thanks for taking the time to write your opinion up - much appreciated, having differing informed opinions generates knowledge

Supposedly upper BOA actually has a performance benefit vs buckles. Lower BOA simply doesn’t. It’s all about comfort and convenience.

So, if you can produce the same level of performance with added comfort and convinience - is that not a marginal gain?

At the end of the day BOA might look rediculous - but if it is underneath my baggy pant and makes the adjustment easier and more comfortable across the entire boot for my skinny legs (and potentially adds other performance benefits as well), then I am all for it. You are all equally right to come to different conclusions that serves your requirements.

[tompietrowski]

BOA doesn’t work with boots where the shell is close to the foot and the liner is relatively dense. It requires either a completely different shape to a mold and a liner specifically designed to work with BOA or you can half ass it and just put soft plastic over the top of the boot as some manufacturers have chosen to do. The same mold doesn’t work with buckles and BOA, they need to be designed differently in order to optimize them for one vs. the other.

It would be interesting to get Matt's and Tom's take on this. You know, since engineers are so famous for not being bombastic and being nuanced in their approach to different solutions. Interesting take nonetheless, so thanks for taking the time to write your opinion up - much appreciated, having differing informed opinions generates knowledge

Yeah that top quote is not true in the slightest. We did initially have the same concern that a thicker shell would not work well but in reality boa is so strong it has zero problem closing a thicker shell. We have added boa to various race and race inspired boots when we were developing cortex and using our feet same boa shell tweets we got them to perform really well with boa.

The soft instep is not needed but it does help give a better wrap to the foot but most importantly just helps the foot enter the boot much more easily.

The liner can make a difference though. Liners which use hard outer materials are having some issues in boa shells. Tecnica for example have found their cas liner does not work too well in their new Mach boa boots. But most liners will work fine it’s only very stiff outer liners which struggle.

As for same shell with boa and buckles that I would agree with. Technically you can get away with using both in the same tooling but you will not get the best from both systems.

[twat]

Don't be dissin on syntech, bro. there were 300 post threads @ aol communities talking about how dope it was.

I remember those


How was the reception on Salomon verse?

[tompietrowski]

I remember those


How was the reception on Salomon verse?

They did not last too long as it was really pretty complex for what it offered. Ski boots were still really developing at this time and there were a lot of interesting things happening.

I do remember though this was pre spk and I actually made up a pair of these with some foam injection liners and some other slight tweaks for the, at the time, British freestyle champion. They had some unique features we were able to utilize to make a pretty cool boot for him.

[cocoapuff]

I give up. You guys have finally forced me to go to Newschoolers for 25/26 gear hype.

[Rob Stokes]

I give up. You guys have finally forced me to go to Newschoolers for 25/26 gear hype.

Same, this is grim.

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[ASmileyFace]

Lol, seriously. I know BOA is apparently the only cool thing this year but maybe make a dedicated thread?

[tragicsolitude]

So, if you can produce the same level of performance with added comfort and convinience - is that not a marginal gain?

No, change is bad. Same topsheets, every year. Same ski design, every year. Same boot design, every year.

If you change something you will shatter my fragile little baby ego.

If you change something it is ugly and doesn't work.