How Much Risk Is Too Much Risk in Extreme Sports?

[Darren Jakal]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread talk about anyone other than themselves--no mention of partners, parents, children, friends, people you owe money to. Not that I'm surprised.

What are you getting at? Are you planning to put others at risk?

[telefreewasatch]

What are you getting at? Are you planning to put others at risk?

Don't agree with old goat much but do on this.
Said it in the Tof thread and got hammered on some for my opinion.
Sayin it again.
If one has children it's a moral obligation to dial it back some.
Or don't have kids and live life to it's fullest with your ambitions.
For me, living life to it's fullest in my 30's was having kids and sharing life with them.
Full circle, having kids and all, won't know unless ya do it...

[skinipenem]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread talk about anyone other than themselves--no mention of partners, parents, children, friends, people you owe money to. Not that I'm surprised.

That's because I haven't posted in this thread yet.

I think what people don't get is that when a person takes mortal risk, others suffer in the wake of failure.

I hear people say, "I would never commit suicide because it is such a selfish act and harms the ones I leave behind the most."

Extreme sports risk does not carry the same harm to others as suicide primarily because the individual that died was doing something they loved. This is much easier to rationalize. Suicide on the other hand, may result in the statement, "If only I could have done something?"

Now, if one truly believes dying has no effect on others or one simply doesn't care... then have at it with abandon.

I took serious risk kayaking class v and v+ water and first descents as a young man. I had friends die. I knew the risks and accepted the possibility of death. I legitimately almost died once and was accepting of death during and after the event. I also knew I was being selfish and putting my parents, siblings, and friend's mental health at risk. However, I don't think I understood the magnitude of their risk at the time. If I were to do it all over again, I think I would need to have some serious conversations with them prior to sending it.

Flame away.

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[TBS]

An acceptable level of risk is what you’re comfortable with IF you understand the consequences. I think a lot of folks don’t really understand the consequences until they’re older and have experienced the carnage. I’m comfortable with my mortality and have been very lucky but I want to string this adventure out as long as I’m able.

Well said.

In addition, the research is pretty compelling that humans do a poor job of assessing risk & consequence at most stages of skill/experience. Mostly on the optimistic side.

[Darren Jakal]

Don't agree with old goat much but do on this.
Said it in the Tof thread and got hammered on some for my opinion.
Sayin it again.
If one has children it's a moral obligation to dial it back some.
Or don't have kids and live life to it's fullest with your ambitions.
For me, living life to it's fullest in my 30's was having kids and sharing life with them.
Full circle, having kids and all, won't know unless ya do it...

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. How your kids influence your actions does not concern me one way or the other. We are all going to understand and manage our own risks in our own way.

[TBS]

Question for parents - do you dial it back (A) out of moral obligation, or (B) you find being with your spouse/kids brings greater joy than the risk/return of whatever death defying feat you are contemplating?

I was in Camp B

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Question for parents - do you dial it back (A) out of moral obligation, or (B) you find being with your spouse/kids brings greater joy than the risk/return of whatever death defying feat you are contemplating?

I was in Camp B

A not B. But it was also tied up with fear. I started getting scared in places that didn't use to scare me. I wasn't scared of dying. I was scared of not making it home.



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[telefreewasatch]

A and B.
The two combined were quite powerful.

[telefreewasatch]

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. How your kids influence your actions does not concern me one way or the other. We are all going to understand and manage our own risks in our own way.

Was responding to old goat, sorry, my bad...

[skinipenem]

A and B.
The two combined were quite powerful.

This. B is still fun but not as fun as before.

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[toast2266]

Question for parents - do you dial it back (A) out of moral obligation, or (B) you find being with your spouse/kids brings greater joy than the risk/return of whatever death defying feat you are contemplating?

I was in Camp B

Neither, really. I didn't want to die / get grievously injured before kids, and I still don't.

To the extent I've dialed back on risks, it's because I'm older and I'm aware that I'm not as strong and fit as I once was, and I take longer to heal. While people die on mundane shit all the time, none of the stuff that I'm doing feels like it's toeing right up to the line of deadly consequence. But if I shy away from teeing up some drop, it's generally because I look at it and recognize that my legs probably aren't strong enough to muscle out of a manky landing, but I'm not thinking "this drop feels too risky and I've got mouths to feed." Like, freak accidents aside, the realistic consequence is I blow a knee or whatever. Which would certainly suck, but it doesn't really affect my kids' broader wellbeing.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

A and B.
The two combined were quite powerful.

B is great, but I never found it to be a replacement. It's different.

Not that I was ever risking life and limb on a regular basis. But my skiing goals definitely shifted from scary to aesthetic. Now I'm just limited by an aging body that increasingly refuses to do cool shit.

[Darren Jakal]

Was responding to old goat, sorry, my bad...

Cool

[gaijin]

A and B. I don't really know how to separate it all.

I got caught in a slide in 2009 and got sucked through a forest. The only thing I thought about in that white room was my pregnant wife. In another wreck, I blew my knee because I was about to faceplant a tree at 40mph and I had contorted my body so severely to avoid the tree after my kids' faces flashed before my eyes at the sight of that tree.

Now that my kids are in school and I have so much life experience with them, I pictures their faces all the time when I'm ripping through the forest. And when I do, it means I'm worried about the snow, so I go home. If the snow is feeling safe but I'm seeing faces it's because I'm skiing too fast. So, I dial it back.

I had a life-threatening roll-over in my truck on the highway. No kids at the time, but I accepted that I was about to lose my head and I was completely at peace. I didn't think of anyone. At all.

All three of those accidents or wrecks shared one thing in common-- I saw doom coming but I got lucky. The kids being in the picture resulted in absolute, horrendous fear.

I don't like that fear. So, yeah, I dial it back every chance I get.

[jono]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread talk about anyone other than themselves--no mention of partners, parents, children, friends, people you owe money to. Not that I'm surprised.

I was all set to navel gaze at my selfish reasons and their re-balancing as I've gained experience, increased risk tolerance and lost fear as a source of adrenaline after accepting mortality. Then I could use that to chastise others for their inferior choices and values. But now you're saying there's an option to get altruistic, take the moral high ground and chastise them from there?

I'm going to have to rethink my contribution to this thread.

[old goat]

Not suggesting chastising anyone. Just that if there are people who love you, you might want to take their feelings into consideration when taking on risk. If no one loves you, have at it. (I'm not referring to any particular you.)

[MagnificentUnicorn]

So no risk taking if someone loves you? Sounds like a joyless existence


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[subtle plague]

I have a wife and two small kids. I haven't dialed it back avie wise because I always wanted to come home. I guess I ski even closer to the avie limit than 20 years ago.

Hucks: well. Since my flat landing n 05 I've never really hucked anything above 3-5m I'd guess. And I've never liked to ski you Fall you die ski /into rappel lines. So I didn't have to dial it back.

[Darren Jakal]

I was all set to navel gaze at my selfish reasons and their re-balancing as I've gained experience, increased risk tolerance and lost fear as a source of adrenaline after accepting mortality. Then I could use that to chastise others for their inferior choices and values. But now you're saying there's an option to get altruistic, take the moral high ground and chastise them from there?

I'm going to have to rethink my contribution to this thread.

Thanks for articulating what I was thinking.

[old goat]

So no risk taking if someone loves you? Sounds like a joyless existence


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I didn't say that, but it should be part of your equation. But then it's not surprising to hear a bunch of skiers think only of themselves. We're a selfish bunch.

I've taken my share of risk (although what I consider risk, unathletic nerd that I am, would not be considered risky by most here). Especially when I was young and single.

Circumstances matter. Girlfriend, or wife and kids? Significant risk of death, or "just" of injury?

The other thing to consider is how risky something actually is. The Alex Honnolds of this world are certainly taking risks but not as much as people might think. They're extremely well prepared--I don't remember the number but Honnold did Freerider a bunch of times before he soloed it. That doesn't mean people like him can't die but they're less likely to do so than the average risk taker who doesn't understand what it takes. I used to climb with a guy who has a first ascent in 50 Greatest; I was struck by how careful he was compared to my somewhat reckless, ignorant style.

I do believe one can live a joyful life without taking significant risks. But maybe not for you.

[jono]

Not suggesting chastising anyone.

Now it sounds like you're suggesting that Le TRG waits for suggestion. You're not suggesting that, are you? Cause no way I'm falling for that. If there are 3 choices we're gonna pick one and be a dick about it.

Just that if there are people who love you, you might want to take their feelings into consideration when taking on risk. If no one loves you, have at it. (I'm not referring to any particular you.)

Those considerations were partly responsible for driving me to a more devout form of realism, the acceptance of mortality and all that. So I'm on board, but as you and Toast have implied, there's a knee in the consequences vs. skills curve that often keeps death out of the likely outcomes as other limiting factors come in.

Less so if death is highly probable in the short term anyway. My reward/risk ratio bottomed out with an on-sight huck of a blind cliff with a challenging entry on the shouted word of a guy I barely knew that the landing looked good. It worked out, but the decision itself scared me straight: I had to stop trusting my emotional sense of fear to keep me safe--and what's the point of a blind huck anyway? Way less flow state that way.

[garyfromterrace]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread talk about anyone other than themselves--no mention of partners, parents, children, friends, people you owe money to. Not that I'm surprised.

I do realize that you probably have me on ignore and will not be able to read this post, nor the one that I wrote earlier:

Over the years our tolerance for risk changes. I used to ski "fall you die" lines and couloirs. Not no more. Not just because I've got a wife, kids and grandkids who would miss me, but because my risk tolerance has changed as has my physical and mental ability to actually ski that shit without falling and dying.

How much risk it too much risk? IMO a personal choice certainly, but putting other people in mortal danger because of the shameless pursuit of self promotion, well I call bullshit. Tough conundrum though - is it fair to leave children behind without a parent because your chosen profession has a high probability of death? Should a sponsored base jumper quit his profession because he has kids? A big mountain skier? A fireman? A logger? Don't know the answer, but I'm sure some of you smart folk do.

Again, understandable if you missed my post, I mean shit - there's only about six people that post on the board that I don't have on ignore..

[buttahflake]

Do you guys miss me? holy shit this is stale.

[old goat]

I do realize that you probably have me on ignore and will not be able to read this post, nor the one that I wrote earlier:



Again, understandable if you missed my post, I mean shit - there's only about six people that post on the board that I don't have on ignore..

I don't have you on ignore, I apologize for not remembering your post. Obviously you and probably other people have mentioned considering loved ones/dependents.

As far as partners, a lot depends on which came first--the partner or the risk taking. Usually the risk taking came first so presumably the partner is willing to accept it. There is a section in Free Solo where his now-wife then-GF talks about this.

[EWG]

This is interesting to me: it's scientifically proven that the less expertise you have at something the less you understand of risk. That impacts a lot of this. Add in the natural risk taking imbedded in the young adult brain development process, plus the "risky shift" - the documentation that groups presented with risk will accept more than an individual (see Steven's Pass), and you have kind of a perfect storm for young adults.

As we get older we get more experience, our brains mature, and we are often with smaller peer groups.

As for myself, I have had an odd relationship with risk. Generally I ended up with groups doing activities - skiing, biking, canyoneering, climbing, that were purposely pushing right to the edge. People one connection away from me died. That risk was understood. Within this world my role always seemed to be a moderator - as in finding and mitigating the sharpest risk points. I had no fear during the activity, just caution. As an aside, the fear would come at night, when the lights were off and the quiet came. That was interesting.

And then my wife got pregnant, and I became even more that way - still on the edge, but leaning away from it.

And then our kid was stillborn. Devastated is an understatement. And then this happened - I distinctly remember a mtn bike downhill a short time after that, when I realized mid-ride that the fear and caution were both completely gone. Both during the day and at night - gone. It felt amazing and shocking. Absolutely no limiter. That stayed for quite some time. I think it was more about living life to the fullest for our lost son that never had a chance to be alive than about any nihilistic stuff. That was what was in my head as I flew down that downhill, anyway. It's stayed with me ever since, but it's more in the background now.

And yeah, I feel a HUGE amount of responsibility to my family to come home in one piece. And I WANT to. So that modifies things. I also really, really like being alive, so I make decisions with that in mind. But if I'm honest with myself, there are still times I'm at risk. I like to think it's similar risk to being in a car during the road trip to get there in back. Not sure that's true.

And it feels like what governs my behavior most these days is a desire not to get hurt and lose time to injury, so that's always part of the mental equation. And I'm not sure if I'm good or bad at that kind of math.

There is a line to me where I think risk is too much, where I or someone else has put their friends and family in too much jeopardy of being devastated by their loss. I don't think I have any kind of handle, however, on where that line is.