Which Pivots? Why no thread?

[Hood26]

Shopping pivots. I have always just bought 12s to save money. My highest recommend DIN is 9.5, so why buy anything but the 12? I know that the 15s and up are metal toe and metal is better than plastic for longevity and usually strength.

While shopping I found that J’s had the best price (good on them for being a great ski company) and their description says for skier 160lb and lighter, and they got me thinking because J knows his shit, but no one else, including Look, say anything about weight limit.

What say you all?

[t-the-east]

I started this one a few months ago

Look Pivot 12 vs 14- anyone skiing hard on 12’s ?
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=355983

Went for the 12’s on a new pair of Devastators. I’ve been skiing hard on them all winter. Highly recommend

[CHAIR_97]

Dead horse

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[dcpnz]

Weight is only one piece of the puzzle as to what din you want/need.
12/14 toe has the split wing toe which I believe some claim to offer a form of vertical release. 15 does not. If you’re a backseat kind of skier then maybe the 12/14 toe is beneficial.

[FloridaSnow]

Weight is only one piece of the puzzle as to what din you want/need.
12/14 toe has the split wing toe which I believe some claim to offer a form of vertical release. 15 does not. If you’re a backseat kind of skier then maybe the 12/14 toe is beneficial.

common misconception. The 15/18 also has vertical release. Just works different. The entire toe piece moves as opposed to the wings on the 12/14.

check the link for the illustration

https://www.look-bindings.com/technologies

[XavierD]

common misconception. The 15/18 also has vertical release. Just works different. The entire toe piece moves as opposed to the wings on the 12/14.

check the link for the illustration

https://www.look-bindings.com/technologies

It moves upward to provide some elasticity but not enough travel to enable a true vertical release. It does enable release beyond just horizontal, but I think you’d be hard pressed to get anything within 30-40 degrees of vertical. Put an Uber soft spring in there and you still won’t get a vertical release out of the metal toe. 12/14 full drive toe enables vertical release but requires significantly more force than lateral release. Also been hashed out multiple times over the years on here. But yeah, I’m pretty sure there is a multiplayer thread called something along the lines of ‘the pivot thread’ which has been going on for close to a decade.

[Hood26]

Dead horse

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So dead it doesn’t even show up in the search. Begs the question why no dedicated Pivot or Look thread one could read through?

Sorry for asking for more harm to our poor dead Dan who died long ago in a Marty Robbins’ song while looking for water.

Where is this oasis of the Pivot Thread (is it the one in Gear Swap?) because all I have found are mirages?

Maybe a bump by a kind or frustrated mag and I will nuke this one and never start another.

[FloridaSnow]

It moves upward to provide some elasticity but not enough travel to enable a true vertical release. It does enable release beyond just horizontal, but I think you’d be hard pressed to get anything within 30-40 degrees of vertical. Put an Uber soft spring in there and you still won’t get a vertical release out of the metal toe. 12/14 full drive toe enables vertical release but requires significantly more force than lateral release. Also been hashed out multiple times over the years on here. But yeah, I’m pretty sure there is a multiplayer thread called something along the lines of ‘the pivot thread’ which has been going on for close to a decade.

again this is just incorrect and needs to stop being parroted. All look pivot toes have multi directional release including vertical. The site won’t let me post the examples as they’re too large. If you simple click the link you’ll see the animation showing vertical release on 15/18

[FloridaSnow]

Here’s a screen shot of the animation for the 15/18 showing vertical release. The website shows it in action.

[Shaaarrrp]

How much are you even saving with the 12s? The 15s are less than $275 from my boy Bob. Metal > plastic

[dcpnz]

The toes are clearly different and function differently. One is called a “ full action toe piece” and has split wings to facilitate certain modes of release. The other is called an “aluminum racing toe“. Whether it moves enough in that plane that Floridasnow’s graphic shows to release vertically is debatable. Look’s verbiage is quite obfuscatory, most likely deliberately. Study the stuff on the look website and draw your own conclusions based on your risk tolerance.

[CHAIR_97]

You will definitely release all kinds of ways with the garbage plastic toe because that pile of dog shit flexs and spreads like your mom's vag. Metal for the win. I ski pivot because I want retention out of my bindings not release.


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[Lord Thomas]

I've been using the split toe 12/14's for a long time and have never had a release when I didn't need it....or it not release when I did need it. Generally I've found that I'm comfortable running my DIN in Look clamps a little lower than most other clamps (eg Attack's) because of the retention provided by the elasticity in both the toe and heel. For what it's worth, I weigh well north of 200lb and tend to not ski very slow or on groomers. YMMV

[XavierD]

Here’s a screen shot of the animation for the 15/18 showing vertical release. The website shows it in action.

Grab an actual look 15/18 toe and see if you can get it to go high enough to release vertically. It won’t. Put in the softest spring you can. Doesn’t matter. Multidirectional, yes, vertical, no.

[FloridaSnow]

Grab an actual look 15/18 toe and see if you can get it to go high enough to release vertically. It won’t. Put in the softest spring you can. Doesn’t matter. Multidirectional, yes, vertical, no.

Lol at hand flexing a binding. Multi directional means in multiple directions. Including vertical. They literally have the animation on their website. Some random dude trying to claim he knows more than look is laughable at best.

if YOU want to ignore the facts that’s fine. Pivot 15/18 toes absolutely have vertical release no matter how much you parrot false information

[phatty]

I ski pivot because I want retention out of my bindings not release.

This is it for me. I ski at a higher DIN than the chart, but I don't want to come out of my skis. Way to many releases when I didn't want in the past. Since switching to P15s, I've never had an unwanted release.

[halliday]

The Pivot 14 has a pretty durable plastic toe piece. I think design-wise the single metal toe piece makes more sense for the obvious reasons. +1 for the 15-18.

[auvgeek]

Lol at hand flexing a binding. Multi directional means in multiple directions. Including vertical. They literally have the animation on their website. Some random dude trying to claim he knows more than look is laughable at best.

if YOU want to ignore the facts that’s fine. Pivot 15/18 toes absolutely have vertical release no matter how much you parrot false information

So (at best) that would mean vertical release at the toe isn’t consistent with the DIN for lateral release or the heel vertical release. Because you can absolutely torque a boot out of the binding by hand laterally and vertically at the heel at a low DIN.

This horse has been beaten, and I haven’t seen any distinct evidence (beyond Look’s copywriting) that the 15/18 release vertically at the toe. And yeah, I’ve argued this with XavierD in the past and changed my mind about it.

[gwat]

Grab an actual look 15/18 toe and see if you can get it to go high enough to release vertically. It won’t. Put in the softest spring you can. Doesn’t matter. Multidirectional, yes, vertical, no.

I love a good Pivot debate!
I’m with Xavier….P15/18, lower the din (heck, take the spring right out) and try to release your boot vertically. It won’t.

[dcpnz]

Lol at hand flexing a binding. Multi directional means in multiple directions. Including vertical. They literally have the animation on their website. Some random dude trying to claim he knows more than look is laughable at best.

if YOU want to ignore the facts that’s fine. Pivot 15/18 toes absolutely have vertical release no matter how much you parrot false information

No, multi-directional does not necessarily include all directions nor vertical.
To the best of my knowledge, nowhere does Look directly say the 15/18 releases vertically so until they do it is reasonable for people to be skeptical.
Your beloved animation does not show a boot, nor does it show a boot releasing.

Maybe you’re privy to some study or analytics or testing that the rest of us are not. If so please share your credentials. Until then maybe stop being so adamant about something that Look does not say based on your inferences of their deliberately opaque language and a CGI animation.

[FloridaSnow]

So (at best) that would mean vertical release at the toe isn’t consistent with the DIN for lateral release or the heel vertical release. Because you can absolutely torque a boot out of the binding by hand laterally and vertically at the heel at a low DIN.

This horse has been beaten, and I haven’t seen any distinct evidence (beyond Look’s copywriting) that the 15/18 release vertically at the toe. And yeah, I’ve argued this with XavierD in the past and changed my mind about it.

popping a boot out of a binding with torque isn’t hand flexing a binding as he was talking about. You can pop a boot out of a pivot 15/18 with a rearward toque which creates a toe verticals release.

again look flat out says every toe of theirs has it. Specifically mentioning the reward fall release which again would create a toe vertical release.

look at made it clear every toe has it (no disclaimer stating that excludes the 15/18) internet warriors have beating this to death because they love to try and validate their opinion as fact. When it’s nothing more than opinion. The facts are what look state. Which is multi direction toe release including rear ward falls on EVERY toe.

[FloridaSnow]

No, multi-directional does not necessarily include all directions nor vertical.
To the best of my knowledge, nowhere does Look directly say the 15/18 releases vertically so until they do it is reasonable for people to be skeptical.
Your beloved animation does not show a boot, nor does it show a boot releasing.

Maybe you’re privy to some study or analytics or testing that the rest of us are not. If so please share your credentials. Until then maybe stop being so adamant about something that Look does not say based on your inferences of their deliberately opaque language and a CGI animation.

Please show me the disclaimer that says the 15/18 toe doesn’t have vertical release protecting from a rearward fall? All cases of falls including rearward means the toes will release in every direction. It’s common sense here.

[dcpnz]

Please show me the disclaimer that says the 15/18 toe doesn’t have vertical release protecting from a rearward fall? All cases of falls including rearward means the toes will release in every direction. It’s common sense here.

Why don’t you show me the bit where multi-direction means every direction???

[auvgeek]

You can pop a boot out of a pivot 15/18 with a rearward toque which creates a toe verticals release.

Actually, I can’t. And I’ve tried. Post a video of you torquing a boot (by hand) so that it releases purely vertically, and I’ll believe you.

[FloridaSnow]

Why don’t you show me the bit where multi-direction means every direction???

ya sure. No problem. See right there where it states in ALL CASES OF FALLS INCLUDING REARWARD.

you cannot protect in all cases of falls let alone rearward without upward vertical toe release. That is just a fact. Looks makes it clear every toe has this ability. They also have the illustrations showing exactly how the toe works vertically clear as day. Just because some of you don’t want to accept that and need them to spell it out literally word for word isn’t my problem. Look has NEVER stated the 15/18 do not have verticals release. In fact they’ve said the opposite, that every toe has multi directional release. They do not state the 12/14 has vertical release while others don’t. In fact when they describe the differences of the two they don’t mention release % at all. Because that’s not the differences. More than welcome to believe whatever you want. The facts are facts though. Look states multi directional on EVERY TOE, their own imagine shows this.