Which Pivots? Why no thread?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

So the toe on a pivot binding does not have enough downward travel in the front of the toe to properly release a boot vertically. Not even close. So just to reinforce my statement and known mechanics of the binding I lowered the din on a pair of 18’s. Put a boot in, used a long lever to try to get the boot to release vertically to no avail due to the lack of space under the toe that will not allow the front of the toe to travel down enough to allow the boot to release.
Now a twisting reverse fall it will release but that is not purely vertical, it’s at an angle. Pretty sure we/I was trolled into doing this. I also don’t believe marketing speak as they used their words very carefully to not mention it nor admit to it.


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So they have multi directional release?


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[Upinsmoke]

Lol

[phatty]

Supposition on why the Pivot 18 is being offered in black with 75mil brakes? Is this a push to get folks to buy the 2.0? If that’s the case why so many offerings in the 15? Based on the offerings, it looks like the 15 is the most popular.

They have offered those for years. Nothing new. Racer/freestyle binding. Easy to swap the brakes and have a black set.

Noticed no Harlaut binding next year. Wish we could get another Forza. Forza 1.0 and 2.0 seemed like only 1 season each and 3.0 is going into it's 3rd season.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

As someone who started skiing late in life I'm Pivot-curious. How much better are Pivots? I've gone through a fair number of skis in the last 5 years just getting a feel for what changes with width, length, flex, and camber curves but my bindings have stayed relatively constant with Tyrolia Attack demos, Shifts, and ATKs. What difference should I expect to feel if I mount a pair of Pivots? I typically ski with my DIN at 8, it sounds like the P15 is the sweet spot for most people but will I get much advantage from that over the P12? I'm not dropping anything or hitting jumps on skis, my pace in bumps is moderate.

IMHO the only reason you want Pivots is for the magical heel retention. And this is why I'm so SPX curious because, holy shit, the brakes on Pivots are a joke, but understandably necessary due to the design. I am familiar with and have skied Royal family bindings, Attacks, and Salomons, I currently have 3 pair of Pivots in use and one pair of STH2 16's. This is not internet BS: I run the toes of all bindings on the same DIN, regardless of maker. The heel DINs on my Pivots match my toe DINs. The heels of any other binding I run 2 DIN higher. It's not believable, to me, how insanely good the Pivot heel is at keeping my skis on.

I am familiar with the SPX but have never skied them. If the heel elasticity is as claimed by Look then it should function every bit as well as the Pivot does. I don't really care about the metal toe (my toes are metal but I really do not believe I would feel a difference) but from a marketing perspective Look would be well served to put an SPX 15 retail flat mount into the line up. I need to try some SPX's because I'd be sold if the heel worked as well as the Pivot heel.

[Hood26]

They have offered those for years. Nothing new. Racer/freestyle binding. Easy to swap the brakes and have a black set.
.

My question wasn’t why a 75mm brake in black, but rather why only a 75mm brake? Essentially, the Pivot 18 is fading out for the 2.0. I am wondering if they left the 75mm brakes on the product sheet because they have a back-stock?

To the dude asking my original question about 12s, based on my actual skis and responses here; jump up to the 14 at least. Also, it’s not BS that you will get a better flex and feel out of the skis.

[toast2266]

IMHO the only reason you want Pivots is for the magical heel retention. And this is why I'm so SPX curious because, holy shit, the brakes on Pivots are a joke, but understandably necessary due to the design. I am familiar with and have skied Royal family bindings, Attacks, and Salomons, I currently have 3 pair of Pivots in use and one pair of STH2 16's. This is not internet BS: I run the toes of all bindings on the same DIN, regardless of maker. The heel DINs on my Pivots match my toe DINs. The heels of any other binding I run 2 DIN higher. It's not believable, to me, how insanely good the Pivot heel is at keeping my skis on.

I am familiar with the SPX but have never skied them. If the heel elasticity is as claimed by Look then it should function every bit as well as the Pivot does. I don't really care about the metal toe (my toes are metal but I really do not believe I would feel a difference) but from a marketing perspective Look would be well served to put an SPX 15 retail flat mount into the line up. I need to try some SPX's because I'd be sold if the heel worked as well as the Pivot heel.

I'm in the same boat (Pivot heel DIN matches toes, most other bindings I run the heel higher). But I'd also say that the Pivots just ski really nice because of the extra short mount point. Less dead spot underfoot. The SPX's lose that upside.

[ASmileyFace]

I'm in the same boat (Pivot heel DIN matches toes, most other bindings I run the heel higher). But I'd also say that the Pivots just ski really nice because of the extra short mount point. Less dead spot underfoot. The SPX's lose that upside.

Same for me too. STH heels I have to run 1+ to stay in the way I expect when I run equal dins on Pivots.

[snowaddict91]

My question wasn’t why a 75mm brake in black, but rather why only a 75mm brake? Essentially, the Pivot 18 is fading out for the 2.0. I am wondering if they left the 75mm brakes on the product sheet because they have a back-stock?

Moguls. The next time you watch a mogul comp or see a team at the local hill, look at the bindings. They all run pivots. It is interesting that it's the only 18 in the catalog next year.


I'm also in the camp that has to run heel DIN higher on other bindings. After years of only skiing pivots at 10, I bought some skis with wardens off a friend and the first day out on them I walked out twice.

[Hood26]

I'm in the same boat (Pivot heel DIN matches toes, most other bindings I run the heel higher). But I'd also say that the Pivots just ski really nice because of the extra short mount point. Less dead spot underfoot. The SPX's lose that upside.

I fully agree. I have had three pairs of SPXs over the years. Still have one pair. I have walked out of the SpX and never the Pivots. I think the only ski I have had that wouldn’t have been any different with Pivots were a pair of heavy two layer of metal Bonafides. Maybe I am wrong about that though.

Two main downsides of Pivots are the non sharability and needing to pay attention to the heel position (including snow on the boot sole) before clicking in, but the upsides make them my primary choice from now on.

Also, guess I should have had more coffee before I made my first post today. Again, I know why there are 75mm brakes. Yup bump comp skiers will be rocking the Harts, Pivots, Fulltilts, and the contrasting knee pants. Love watching them all in the summer on Palmer. Arguably the best skiers on the hill.

[EWG]

For what it's worth, I run my pivot and SPX heels at the same DIN, but I have to raise the pressure on the Attack heels.

Having said that, not sure why it is a problem once you get the setting right.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Having said that, not sure why it is a problem once you get the setting right.

On my Attacks, I’ve had them come of somewhat frequently from quick ‘jolts’, but that same DIN setting was high enough that I tore a calf muscle in a straight ahead release.

My time on Pivots is much more limited, so I’m not putting a high amount of weight on this, but one specific example: I clipped something under the snow which very quickly kicked my one ski backwards and spun me around. I stopped myself on only my other ski, and was ready to hike back up to get my lost ski before realizing both skis were actually still on. I’m 90% sure my attacks would have released there.

In that particular case, wouldn’t have been a big deal if the ski had come off. But my Attacks have come off just skiing through chop fast.

What I’m not sure of right now is whether my current Pivot setting is high enough to risk tearing another calf muscle, but I’m running 1/2 DIN lower than I was running Attacks - but release values haven’t been tested on either.

[Core Shot]

Without quoting anyone.

Pivots are awesome for softer skis.
Less flat spots.

They may or may not have upward toe release.
Ymmv.

They definitely pivot on the heel. Most don’t.
Ymmv.

They also suck for clipping in in deep pow.
But otherwise yes. 15 or more. Old school metal construction.

[normie17]

if you lower the toe din on your pivot 18, you can push the toe piece upwards like 20* with your hands and then it stops. Thats how much vertical release they have. So you'll fall backwards, toe lug will rise, and the slightest bit of twist will get the lug out. Pivot 14 on the other hand, the lugs rise upwards like 3mm and no tilt.

[Lord Thomas]

If we had any fucking snow this year I would be testing both pair of rockerace clamps that I bought last year, one pair of 12's and one pair of 15's. These could be the holy grail of binders if they are everything they are claimed to be. The biggest problem is that there are only 80mm and 120mm brakes available from Look. But, there is a guy over at skitalk that has a step by step for how to use the arms from SPX brakes and sub them in. Hoping to put together at leas a couple pair of 100mm brakes for next year.

[bennymac]

[I've seen black diamonds!]

^^^ In my opinion, they don't. But they will usually release just fine in a backward fall. With just a little bit of lateral or rotational force the boot will squirt out to the side just fine. Same as Salomon.

[toast2266]

This thread got me curious. Confirmed that P18's cannot release vertically. The toe piece bottoms out on the pedestal well before the boot clears out vertically.

Here's a pic. Notice the spring is completely removed and the toe is angled up enough that the front is bottomed out. Boot isn't particularly close to being able to release straight up. As a practical matter, in this scenario I'm sure any sideways pull would get the boot out, but it's not a true vertical release.

[Lord Thomas]

This thread got me curious. Confirmed that P18's cannot release vertically. The toe piece bottoms out on the pedestal well before the boot clears out vertically.

Here's a pic. Notice the spring is completely removed and the toe is angled up enough that the front is bottomed out. Boot isn't particularly close to being able to release straight up. As a practical matter, in this scenario I'm sure any sideways pull would get the boot out, but it's not a true vertical release.

And there we go, the science has spoken! Now, let's move on

[phatty]

This thread got me curious. Confirmed that P18's cannot release vertically. The toe piece bottoms out on the pedestal well before the boot clears out vertically.

Here's a pic. Notice the spring is completely removed and the toe is angled up enough that the front is bottomed out. Boot isn't particularly close to being able to release straight up. As a practical matter, in this scenario I'm sure any sideways pull would get the boot out, but it's not a true vertical release.

That's a sick color binding, though. Isn't that enough? Why are we still talking about vertical release? [emoji23]

As stated before by others, I've never come out of a Pivot when I don't want to and can't say the same about any other binding I've used. Vertical, sideways, multi directional? Doesn't matter to me.

As for 12/14 vs. 15/18, yes it can be personal preference and cost based. The cost difference when buying from Corbetts keeps me in 15s with the full metal. Is plastic fine? Sure. But if you can have metal for a few bucks more? Yeah, I'll take metal every time. Only time I use a different binding is when I have hole conflicts.

[Bandit Man]

That's a sick color binding, though. Isn't that enough? Why are we still talking about vertical release? [emoji23]

As stated before by others, I've never come out of a Pivot when I don't want to and can't say the same about any other binding I've used. Vertical, sideways, multi directional? Doesn't matter to me.

As for 12/14 vs. 15/18, yes it can be personal preference and cost based. The cost difference when buying from Corbetts keeps me in 15s with the full metal. Is plastic fine? Sure. But if you can have metal for a few bucks more? Yeah, I'll take metal every time. Only time I use a different binding is when I have hole conflicts.

Seems like you always buy skis with hole conflicts.

[EWG]

This thread got me curious. Confirmed that P18's cannot release vertically. The toe piece bottoms out on the pedestal well before the boot clears out vertically.

Here's a pic. Notice the spring is completely removed and the toe is angled up enough that the front is bottomed out. Boot isn't particularly close to being able to release straight up. As a practical matter, in this scenario I'm sure any sideways pull would get the boot out, but it's not a true vertical release.

I'm sorry you had to do this to put an end to this topic, but I'm pretty thankful you did.

[phatty]

Seems like you always buy skis with hole conflicts.

Unfortunately it happens more than I want. Just need to buy new skis more often I guess. Or find others with 335mm BSL that also use Pivots.

[Hood26]

That is a sick color. When did they make that one?

Kicking into when in deep snow isn’t all that bad if one sticks the tails into the snow at an angle, kick the boot heel on the toe piece, and then step in.

[toast2266]

That is a sick color. When did they make that one?

Iirc, they're from 2018

[DigSki]

That is a sick color. When did they make that one?

Kicking into when in deep snow isn’t all that bad if one sticks the tails into the snow at an angle, kick the boot heel on the toe piece, and then step in.

Yeah this

Also the p15 is ~10% heavier than the p12. Can make a noticeable difference if you sidestep a lot.