Tune new skis?

[SnowMachine]

I was thinking about this yesterday and then the Rustler 11 thread came up this AM. How many of you guys have a new ski tuned before skiing it?

I've always waxed and then skied before making changes. I've had shops ask me if I want a detune on my new skis, but have never done it before skiing them.

I had a set of skis tuned a couple of weeks back and they came back "catchy", so I detuned them a bit from the contact points.

My most recent new skis have all felt pretty spot-on from the wrapper. I haven't touched then.

What says the mags? Personal preference? Tune all of the skis? Detune all of the skis?

Thus could also devolve into a "X brand has a good/bad factory tune."

It's snowing, everything is shut down, let's chat...

[hawkgt]

every new ski I ever had.... base check/level, quick edge and detune, wax it up. adjust as needed with gummy stone in pocket as the day goes on. i do my own mediocre tuning so no pro by any means

[singlesline]

Thus could also devolve into a "X brand has a good/bad factory tune."

That's gonna be part of your answer.

My Praxis MVP 108 came nice and flat with good 1/1 edges (although I reset the side bevel to 2-degrees after a couple days). But my guess is they have a guy sitting there giving each ski a shop tune. Same with places like Moment--I think they even hot box the skis before they go out the door rather than just a quick machine wax.

Some of the mass produced factory skis are gonna be pretty variable and a lot of them could use a base grind--some of that is just from materials changing over the very long journey the ski takes to get to the shop in the US and some of it is due to mass production and less individual care.

If you've ever bought a new pair of skis and just not enjoyed them, it is worth getting a stone grind and tune done (or at least check base flatness, touch up and deburr the edges, and experiment with some tip/tail detuning) before you ditch them...might just be that the bases are wonky.

[sf]

If you've ever bought a new pair of skis and just not enjoyed them……it might just be that the bases are wonky.

This, and bevels of course.

But I’ve never had a ski from the «big guys» that was funky, at least that I know of. Including several Volkls, Blizzards and Nordicas, a couple og 4frnts and one Atomic.

My track record with the small indies is pretty bad though.

One PM gear ski came torsionally twisted.
At least one Praxis that I in hindsight probably should have checked bases/bevels on.
Two skis from ON3P tune-gate.
And now finally, a pair from HL with minimal base bevel.

As much as I love smaller niche brands, this is getting old.

That being said; two of the three skis I have noticed had a really great tune was from ON3P and PM gear as well, so I guess small batch variance and less capacity for QC is a thing

[tuco]

I had a set of skis tuned a couple of weeks back and they came back "catchy", so I detuned them a bit from the contact points.

Which is why I always say to check the edge bevel if they are catchy, instead of just blindly regrinding. Shop stonegrind can come back w/ not enough bevel too. Not to mention grinding unnecessary material off the ski. Sometimes a ski is just plain edge high and needs a regrind---G3's for instance

[tuco]

This, and bevels of course.

But I’ve never had a ski from the «big guys» that was funky, at least that I know of. Including several Volkls, Blizzards and Nordicas, a couple og 4frnts and one Atomic.

My track record with the small indies is pretty bad though.

One PM gear ski came torsionally twisted.
At least one Praxis that I in hindsight probably should have checked bases/bevels on.
Two skis from ON3P tune-gate.
And now finally, a pair from HL with minimal base bevel.

As much as I love smaller niche brands, this is getting old.

That being said; two of the three skis I have noticed had a really great tune was from ON3P and PM gear as well, so I guess small batch variance and less capacity for QC is a thing

I'd bet the majority of those ON3P's problems would have been solved with a simple base bevel reset. I think the problem was just plain too flat. Don't think I recall hearing of any edge high ON3P's

[FloridaSnow]

Wax, ski then worry about a tune personally. I want to feel the ski out of the box before I make changes.

[AlpiNord]

Wax, ski then worry about a tune personally. I want to feel the ski out of the box before I make changes.

Generally this, but check them with a true bar to at least 'get to know' their profile and see what you feel while skiing. I'd definitely remove existing wax and run through base prep & WOTD cycles before skiing to remove that variable from the mix and get started on 'seasoning' the glide.

[Marshal Olson]

a pair from HL with minimal base bevel

just to own it, I did indeed have a batch of skis come through with insufficient base edge bevel this season that I failed to catch. Certainly not the look I am going for, nor how it will be going forward.

Long story short, my belief is that nearly every new ski out of the wrapper benefits from some amount of preparation and in this case I was repeating a process and not individually tuning the specific ski. I certainly know better.

my sincere apologies to anyone who experienced this with an HL and wasn’t impressed from the first turn as a result.

[Skeeze]

Good thread -- I think this is a highly underrated element that the average skier should consider when buying skis, plus has some fairly significant total cost implications given what shop tunes now cost.

I've had good and bad experiences with the big guys and the indies. But from my experience, the highest quality tunes only come from the indies (+Stockli, and maybe some other smaller race-oriented brands), and when the indies mess up, they're often much better at service recovery.

A few things to check from my experience:
--ON3P: base bevel. And per a passing comment in a Gear:30 podcast about the Blister Summit, it seems there were tune issues on the ON3P demoes there this year. A bummer, but ON3P construction is the burliest out there, so once you fix them, they last. They'll retune the skis if they show up bad and you live near the factory, but otherwise, you eat the cost.

--Moment: edge high. Most Moment skis I've gotten have been a bit edge high, particularly in the tips and tails. One pair was so edge high that they gave me a brand new pair after many passes through a stone grinder couldn't get it remotely flat. They'll retune the skis if they show up bad and you live near the factory, but otherwise, you eat the cost.

--Praxis: non-detuned edges. The easiest to resolve on your own, but I recall this being an intentional decision from the factory to not detune that's going to create a subpar experience for the average buyer.

Reading about Marshal's tuning process and how he helped out those who got skis with incorrect base bevels was the most significant influence behind me deciding to buy a pair of HL skis.

Conversely, I bought a pair of Rossi's recently and specifically looked for a used pair that I knew had gotten a full shop tune over gambling on the factory tune and potentially adding significant cost if a full tune was required to get them flat.

[sf]

I'd bet the majority of those ON3P's problems would have been solved with a simple base bevel reset. I think the problem was just plain too flat. Don't think I recall hearing of any edge high ON3P's

Yup, only bevel for me.

just to own it, I did indeed have a batch of skis come through with insufficient base edge bevel this season that I failed to catch. Certainly not the look I am going for, nor how it will be going forward.

Long story short, my belief is that nearly every new ski out of the wrapper benefits from some amount of preparation and in this case I was repeating a process and not individually tuning the specific ski. I certainly know better.

my sincere apologies to anyone who experienced this with an HL and wasn’t impressed from the first turn as a result.

Yeah, I didn’t bother sending you a mail about it since it seemed from the other threads that you were aware of the issue.

And really, it wasn’t that bad - just felt that they were more locked in than a reverse camber ski should be.

Not like one of the other examples I mentioned - almost took my knee and threw me into a tree when I exited deep pow onto a groomer on my first run on the skis

[Shorty_J]

I always check. If they are not perfect but close I might not base grind.... but I pretty much always do the bevels and a minor detune.

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[Shorty_J]

I honestly wonder if the ski finds a final state long after they are pressed... so they get tuned perfectly out of the factory but as the epoxy finishes its cure the ski deviates from that state.

I.e. tuning it some undetermined time after manufacturing might be the best way to do things?

Either way, if you don't know, check and fix any problems you find.

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[Pinned]

I'm by no means the most experiences or best skier out there, but after some recent experiences I won't mount or ski anything before checking the tune and bases again. Less for performance and more for just ease of skiing.

I've only ever bought two new pairs of skis - most I've picked up used. One of the new pairs was a Wildcat 108. I really like them, but always felt they were slow. I bought a used pair of full fat Wildcats from a shop tech - those ski looser yet always seemed faster (part of it from the 1:2 base and side bevel). I never thought much of it (and skied two full seasons on the WC108s). This year I got a base grind on the WC108s, but after skiing them back to back with the WC on the same day it was evident how slow the WC108s still were by comparison.

I brought the WC108s to a different shop and they immediately found that they were very edge high...I'd never even thought to check. My mistake. They got another grind and are much more efficient on runouts and even just groomers.

I could've saved like 11 minutes on runouts over the last few seasons...and also just some general confusion had I just checked everything to begin with. It's so quick and easy to check the tune, flatness, and detune the tips / tails before mounting or skiing that I'll just be sure to do it going forward.

[tuco]

Wax, ski then worry about a tune personally. I want to feel the ski out of the box before I make changes.

I hate to admit it, but I end up doing the same thing... minus the wax.
Bring another set of skis for less fuckery if the tune is off. Shit can ruin a day of skiing if a quick gummy down ain't gonna take care of it
Also, edge high can be a dangerous condition(did I already mention G3) and ruin a lot more than just 1 day of skiing

[Hood26]

Damn Marshal, that’s some serious commitment to your customers and their feedback! You are doing it right.

On detuning, I am now of the mindset that I can have a much worse first day on a ski if I don’t detune enough than if I too little. I have on the last couple of pairs been much more aggressive on detuning well into the rocker and then putting more edge on later as needed. I have done the same for my boys’ last few pairs of SL and GS. Especially, since I am not there with them while they are first skiing them. I would rather they come to me with “I need more edge, I washed out in a turn,” than I hooked my tips/tails and did a a two cartwheel yard sale.”

[gregL]

I always check for base flatness and tip-to-tail warpage, then check edge bevels. Since the best way to check bevels is with a file in a guide, I re-tune the ski to my preferences (usually I've skied the ski before and have a good idea of how to tune it and where to mount it). If I haven't skied it, I basically choose bevels based on waist width. I also don't like the rotary marks from the finishing machine. I detune fairly aggressively all around the tip and tail down to the contact point as well.

I normally do a hot scrape, then 1 or 2 "for real" waxes before they touch snow. Almost no one I know goes to this much effort, but it removes quite a few variables if something isn't quite right.

[buttahflake]

Working in a shop, if I buy skis, which is rare. I usually glom onto a pair of demos I like and go with it. But if I do order a ski, I always flatten and blank them and then run the structure and bevels. I can’t ski, skis out of the wrapper

[gregL]

I can’t ski, skis out of the wrapper

You could, and you might get lucky, but if not you've fucked up a day of skiing. I also work in a shop, but with the exception of base grinds I do all the tuning by hand at home.

[Marshal Olson]

I honestly wonder if the ski finds a final state long after they are pressed... so they get tuned perfectly out of the factory but as the epoxy finishes its cure the ski deviates from that state.

I.e. tuning it some undetermined time after manufacturing might be the best way to do things?

Either way, if you don't know, check and fix any problems you find.

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definately an interesting topic here.

i worked for a well known brand with cap construction and foam core skis, and when they air shipped samples straight off the press for tradeshows, those things almost always arrived crazy railed in the tips and tails. The conventional wisdom at the time was that going from high humidity and temp production to low pressure cargo hold of a plane caused the warp, since it was notably more than production skis that were boat-shipped. It didn’t appreciably happen to wood core skis in the same shipments.

on a sandwich ski, they are finished curing by the time the ski is cooled and comes out of the mold. So generally bad factory tunes come from out-of-calibration tune machines.

and aside from this, modern tuning machines just don’t do edge bevels very will in the tips and tails of rockered freeride skis (ie 3d shapes vs linear grind planes), so the area around the wide points through the ends almost always benefit from hand work on more progressive shapes. Based on my experiences, the more conservative the shape, the less likely it needs hand work touch up out of the wrapper.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

The only skis that I’ve seen that looked like they had a nice tune out of the wrapper are older Stocklis. Like the edges had an almost mirror finish, no machine marks


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[buttahflake]

I actually prefer to see machine marks on the base edge, lets you know just how flat you got the ski. All skis should have striation on the base edge coming out of the machine

[gregL]

I actually prefer to see machine marks on the base edge, lets you know just how flat you got the ski. All skis should have striation on the base edge coming out of the machine

The rotary marks on the base edge don't tell you whether they got the P-Tex flat; they are from a separate set of disks.

[buttahflake]

Huh?

[SnowMachine]

Thank you guys for all of the input. I've probably passed along some skis that might have just needed a tune. Sounds like it's time for me to add some more tools to my wax bench. I've generally just check base flatness, waxed and detuned lightly.